6 ms·

This is quite silly. A warrant isn’t a magic bullet that ends all your rights and gives the police superpowers. A lawyer can very much say “no, this information

by troad 4y ago

This is quite silly. A warrant isn’t a magic bullet that ends all your rights and gives the police superpowers. A lawyer can very much say “no, this information isn’t responsive to the warrant”, where a lay person may not realise this, and volunteer information that they have no legal obligation to hand over. The police absolutely rely on the information and power asymmetry between them and the public. You honestly don’t think the police behave very differently being watched (and these days often filmed) by a dozen high powered lawyers in suits, who will challenge absolutely everything they’ve just done as soon as they’re out the door?

zaphirplane 4y ago
Items removed outside the scope of a warrant have similar standing to items seized without a warrant.
- u320 4y ago
  Yes, in the sense that they are both admissible in court. This is Sweden, not USA.
  - zaphirplane 4y ago
    Are you saying in Sweden police can enter your home, seize your computers, phones and documents without a court order, to look for evidence of some hunch? No that is very far from the general western democracy laws we broadly expect Search and seizure laws are designed to protect citizens from the police and from the state, not some humanitarian protection for criminals
hammock 4y ago
Many cases the police don’t let you watch, they make you wait outside. Reason to have cameras in your place (pros and cons)
- yellowapple 4y ago
  Pros: excellent material for a music video mocking the cops doing the search.
  - zhengyi13 4y ago
    Point of order: multiple music videos, not just one.
- RoyGBivCap 4y ago
  In America maybe. This was in Sweden.
  - kkielhofner 4y ago
    Yes it was. I don't understand how you could have a functioning legal system anywhere if a search warrant can be neutralized by saying "I don't have that" without any kind of search taking place.
    - smsm42 4y ago
      If the search warrant says "take servers containing information about X" and the search team asks which servers contain information about X and gets answer "none" which they have reason to believe it's true - then there's no point taking anything and not taking anything would not hurt the function of the legal system. Of course cops may go on a power trip and take stuff anyway to show how powerful they are, but that has nothing to do with the legal system. Apparently these cops weren't of that sort, congrats to them.
- antman 4y ago
  In other places in the world they can only search room by room so that you can be present and oversee the process.
kkielhofner 4y ago
This is extremely silly. I did not say it ends your rights. I did not say it gives them superpowers. What it does do is give them government and legally sanctioned power backed up by force to do whatever the warrant says. They can tear your house apart. Seize your property. They can withdraw your blood by force if necessary. Micheal Jackson (rich, famous, and powerful) had his genitalia examined. They can certainly (and do) go in your office and take every single thing computer or data related if those devices may contain information relevant to the warrant. "This information isn't responsive to the warrant?" - I feel like I'm living in an alternate universe at this point... That's borderline "One weird trick just say these magic words and the police disappear". Watch video of search warrants being executed. They walk out with TONS of material - anything electronic related, hand trucks with boxes of documents, etc. When the FBI searched a billionaire former US President they walked out with 28 boxes of documents[0]. Is anyone here under the impression that a search warrant for relevant electronic records involves the police sitting down with you and looking at your computer? No. They'll take EVERYTHING, image it for evidentiary purposes, and then take as much time as they need to review it in search for whatever was specified in the warrant. A person or lawyer can say anything they want but the outcome in 99.9% of cases is the guys with the guns are going to do whatever they feel empowered to do. If there's anything questionable it can be argued in court later. High powered lawyers in suits? The FBI executed a search warrant on a billionaire former United States President... Yes they'll likely behave differently but they're certainly not scared of you or whatever you or a lawyer says in the moment. In street crime this is often called "You can beat the rap but you can't beat the ride". In the moment the power asymmetry is very real. I point you to thousands of hours of YouTube police body camera footage, etc that demonstrates it. [0] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcnJNfJqJTI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcnJNfJqJTI
- 411111111111111 4y ago
  > They can tear your house apart. Seize your property. They can withdraw your blood by force if necessary. Micheal Jackson (rich, famous, and powerful) had his genitalia examined. They can certainly (and do) go in your office and take every single thing computer or data related if those devices may contain information relevant to the warrant. Thats only true for the US, which isn't where Mullvad is located.

by troad 4y ago

zaphirplane 4y ago

Items removed outside the scope of a warrant have similar standing to items seized without a warrant.

u320 4y ago
Yes, in the sense that they are both admissible in court. This is Sweden, not USA.
- zaphirplane 4y ago
  Are you saying in Sweden police can enter your home, seize your computers, phones and documents without a court order, to look for evidence of some hunch? No that is very far from the general western democracy laws we broadly expect Search and seizure laws are designed to protect citizens from the police and from the state, not some humanitarian protection for criminals

hammock 4y ago

Many cases the police don’t let you watch, they make you wait outside. Reason to have cameras in your place (pros and cons)

yellowapple 4y ago
Pros: excellent material for a music video mocking the cops doing the search.
- zhengyi13 4y ago
  Point of order: multiple music videos, not just one.
RoyGBivCap 4y ago
In America maybe. This was in Sweden.
- kkielhofner 4y ago
  Yes it was. I don't understand how you could have a functioning legal system anywhere if a search warrant can be neutralized by saying "I don't have that" without any kind of search taking place.
  - smsm42 4y ago
    If the search warrant says "take servers containing information about X" and the search team asks which servers contain information about X and gets answer "none" which they have reason to believe it's true - then there's no point taking anything and not taking anything would not hurt the function of the legal system. Of course cops may go on a power trip and take stuff anyway to show how powerful they are, but that has nothing to do with the legal system. Apparently these cops weren't of that sort, congrats to them.
antman 4y ago
In other places in the world they can only search room by room so that you can be present and oversee the process.

kkielhofner 4y ago

This is extremely silly. I did not say it ends your rights. I did not say it gives them superpowers. What it does do is give them government and legally sanctioned power backed up by force to do whatever the warrant says. They can tear your house apart. Seize your property. They can withdraw your blood by force if necessary. Micheal Jackson (rich, famous, and powerful) had his genitalia examined. They can certainly (and do) go in your office and take every single thing computer or data related if those devices may contain information relevant to the warrant. "This information isn't responsive to the warrant?" - I feel like I'm living in an alternate universe at this point... That's borderline "One weird trick just say these magic words and the police disappear". Watch video of search warrants being executed. They walk out with TONS of material - anything electronic related, hand trucks with boxes of documents, etc. When the FBI searched a billionaire former US President they walked out with 28 boxes of documents[0]. Is anyone here under the impression that a search warrant for relevant electronic records involves the police sitting down with you and looking at your computer? No. They'll take EVERYTHING, image it for evidentiary purposes, and then take as much time as they need to review it in search for whatever was specified in the warrant. A person or lawyer can say anything they want but the outcome in 99.9% of cases is the guys with the guns are going to do whatever they feel empowered to do. If there's anything questionable it can be argued in court later. High powered lawyers in suits? The FBI executed a search warrant on a billionaire former United States President... Yes they'll likely behave differently but they're certainly not scared of you or whatever you or a lawyer says in the moment. In street crime this is often called "You can beat the rap but you can't beat the ride". In the moment the power asymmetry is very real. I point you to thousands of hours of YouTube police body camera footage, etc that demonstrates it. [0] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcnJNfJqJTI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcnJNfJqJTI

411111111111111 4y ago
> They can tear your house apart. Seize your property. They can withdraw your blood by force if necessary. Micheal Jackson (rich, famous, and powerful) had his genitalia examined. They can certainly (and do) go in your office and take every single thing computer or data related if those devices may contain information relevant to the warrant. Thats only true for the US, which isn't where Mullvad is located.