3 ms·

Is this a warrant canary? Maybe the police seized machines but they were blocked from commenting so they published this implausible claim the police went away e

Is this a warrant canary? Maybe the police seized machines but they were blocked from commenting so they published this implausible claim the police went away empty handed.

kkielhofner 3y ago
I'm an American (keep that in mind) but I have been to Sweden many many times throughout my entire life (my dad worked there). It's a great place and somewhat famously the "Swedish Subway Cops"[0] highlighted the difference between US and Swedish policing seven years ago. All of that said I find it highly, highly implausible that law enforcement anywhere in the world would show up with a warrant and just walk out with nothing saying "Oh ok, sorry for the confusion!" because a subject of the warrant told them "Oh we don't have that. Here's my logging configuration file - see line 45 where logs go /dev/null?" (or whatever). Sweden is not the US and maybe I can't picture this because of our issues here but still - this narrative and explanation really strains credibility to me. [0] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izdfnHBMwSs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izdfnHBMwSs
- troad 3y ago
  Warrants generally have to be for something. It’s possible that the police officers showed up with a warrant for user names and addresses, etc, and Mullvad was able to demonstrate that they don’t possess any data responsive to the warrant. At that point there may not have been anything to (lawfully) carry away. It doesn’t necessarily mean that the cops won’t show up tomorrow with a more generic warrant, and Mullvad may have to hand over whatever information it does possess.
- hnarn 3y ago
  The people that attend when these warrants are executed are highly technically skilled, and obviously Swedish surveillance agencies know Mullvad very well, probably intimately (ie it wouldn’t surprise me if they even have an understanding of their infrastructure). It’s not at all “highly implausible” that they showed up for a technical discussion to see if the data they wanted but were almost certain did not exist could be retrieved. If they are confident that this data does not exist, why would they start seizing hardware? As I said: they probably have a basic understanding of how their infrastructure works (especially since Mullvad is fairly open about it), and they likely understand that the second they power off those servers and move them, they are never booting up the same again. So yeah, what you describe as “look at line 45” is not a silly example, because it’s probably more access than they would ever get than if Mullvad met them with hostility.
  - kkielhofner 3y ago
    The first line of the post: "On April 18 at least six police officers from the National Operations Department (NOA) of the Swedish Police visited the Mullvad VPN office in Gothenburg with a search warrant." 1) The government put together the cause/case for a warrant. 2) They got it issued. 3) They showed up with six cops from the national police. That doesn't sound like the setting for a "technical discussion" between two old friends to me... Have you ever seen a search warrant involving anything technical/electronic executed? They're looking for data and there's no way to know for sure where that data is/might be from anywhere from a single cell phone to a server farm. They show up and take anything/everything electronic (usually enumerated in the search warrant like "storage media, computing devices, etc, etc"). They walk out with it, take it back to a certified technician of some sort to clone/image it for evidentiary purposes, and then maybe give it back at some point (depending on the situation).
    - DANmode 3y ago
      > Have you ever seen a search warrant involving anything technical/electronic executed? What jurisdiction is your experience within?
    - hnarn 3y ago
      The fact that you call NOA "the national police" tells me everything I need to know.
      - kkielhofner 3y ago
        Outright dismissal without any substance says a lot too. "The National Operations Department (Nationella operativa avdelningen) is tasked with assisting the local police regions and is in charge of international police cooperation and all national operations."[0] So yes, this was above and beyond a few local cops. Do you have a better way to summarize this other than saying "the national police"? [0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Police_Authority#National_Operations_Department https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Police_Authority#Natio...
  - 3y ago

Is this a warrant canary? Maybe the police seized machines but they were blocked from commenting so they published this implausible claim the police went away empty handed.

kkielhofner 3y ago

I'm an American (keep that in mind) but I have been to Sweden many many times throughout my entire life (my dad worked there). It's a great place and somewhat famously the "Swedish Subway Cops"[0] highlighted the difference between US and Swedish policing seven years ago. All of that said I find it highly, highly implausible that law enforcement anywhere in the world would show up with a warrant and just walk out with nothing saying "Oh ok, sorry for the confusion!" because a subject of the warrant told them "Oh we don't have that. Here's my logging configuration file - see line 45 where logs go /dev/null?" (or whatever). Sweden is not the US and maybe I can't picture this because of our issues here but still - this narrative and explanation really strains credibility to me. [0] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izdfnHBMwSs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izdfnHBMwSs

troad 3y ago
Warrants generally have to be for something. It’s possible that the police officers showed up with a warrant for user names and addresses, etc, and Mullvad was able to demonstrate that they don’t possess any data responsive to the warrant. At that point there may not have been anything to (lawfully) carry away. It doesn’t necessarily mean that the cops won’t show up tomorrow with a more generic warrant, and Mullvad may have to hand over whatever information it does possess.
hnarn 3y ago
The people that attend when these warrants are executed are highly technically skilled, and obviously Swedish surveillance agencies know Mullvad very well, probably intimately (ie it wouldn’t surprise me if they even have an understanding of their infrastructure). It’s not at all “highly implausible” that they showed up for a technical discussion to see if the data they wanted but were almost certain did not exist could be retrieved. If they are confident that this data does not exist, why would they start seizing hardware? As I said: they probably have a basic understanding of how their infrastructure works (especially since Mullvad is fairly open about it), and they likely understand that the second they power off those servers and move them, they are never booting up the same again. So yeah, what you describe as “look at line 45” is not a silly example, because it’s probably more access than they would ever get than if Mullvad met them with hostility.
- kkielhofner 3y ago
  The first line of the post: "On April 18 at least six police officers from the National Operations Department (NOA) of the Swedish Police visited the Mullvad VPN office in Gothenburg with a search warrant." 1) The government put together the cause/case for a warrant. 2) They got it issued. 3) They showed up with six cops from the national police. That doesn't sound like the setting for a "technical discussion" between two old friends to me... Have you ever seen a search warrant involving anything technical/electronic executed? They're looking for data and there's no way to know for sure where that data is/might be from anywhere from a single cell phone to a server farm. They show up and take anything/everything electronic (usually enumerated in the search warrant like "storage media, computing devices, etc, etc"). They walk out with it, take it back to a certified technician of some sort to clone/image it for evidentiary purposes, and then maybe give it back at some point (depending on the situation).
  - DANmode 3y ago
    > Have you ever seen a search warrant involving anything technical/electronic executed? What jurisdiction is your experience within?
  - hnarn 3y ago
    The fact that you call NOA "the national police" tells me everything I need to know.
    - kkielhofner 3y ago
      Outright dismissal without any substance says a lot too. "The National Operations Department (Nationella operativa avdelningen) is tasked with assisting the local police regions and is in charge of international police cooperation and all national operations."[0] So yes, this was above and beyond a few local cops. Do you have a better way to summarize this other than saying "the national police"? [0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Police_Authority#National_Operations_Department https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Police_Authority#Natio...
- 3y ago