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The more barriers to entry the less likely someone is to buy a gun on impulse or "just to have." When they're not common on the street it's not needed to carry

The more barriers to entry the less likely someone is to buy a gun on impulse or "just to have." When they're not common on the street it's not needed to carry one for defence either. You say that drugs busts etc. outside the US will often have guns involved. Yes, criminals can still find ways to get them but ordinary people won't be bothered with this. The Netherlands for example has Europe's biggest port in Rotterdam and sees an incredible amount of drug-related smuggling. It has 3.9 guns per 100,000 people (107th in the world) while the US has 88.8 (1st in the world). The rate of murder is 73 times more than the Netherlands. Sources here: https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Netherlands/United-States/Crime https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Netherland... Look at the murder rate: https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Crime/Violent-crime/Murder-rate https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Crime/Violen... See how high the US then see how far you have to scroll down before you start seeing European countries appearing there. Sources for more control leading to reduced homicides and guns on crime scenes: 1. https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firearms-research/guns-and-death/ https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firearms-research/guns-an... 2. https://injuryprevention.bmj.com/content/7/3/184 https://injuryprevention.bmj.com/content/7/3/184

notch898c 4y ago
>The rate of murder is 73 times more than the Netherlands. No the absolute number is 73x, the rate is like 8x. Since you've cherry picked a European state, I will now cherry pick the state New Hampshire. Murder rate New Hampshire: 0.9 / 100k [0] Murder rate Netherlands: ~0.6 / 100k [1] Also bear in mind the expected murder chance of the average person from the Netherlands dropped into the US is not expected to be anything like the US average murder rate. The US is not nearly as demographically homogenous as the Netherlands and someone with Dutch heritage experiences much closer to Dutch murder rates in the US. [0] https://247wallst.com/state/how-the-murder-rate-in-new-hampshire-compares-to-the-rest-of-the-country/ https://247wallst.com/state/how-the-murder-rate-in-new-hamps... [1] https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/VC.IHR.PSRC.P5?locations=NL https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/VC.IHR.PSRC.P5?location...
- AlecSchueler 4y ago
  Apologies for the mix up with the rate. 8x is still on the side of my argument though. I cherry picked the Netherlands because of the large amount of drug trade there. Every other country in Europe compared favorably to the United States. From what I can see there is a similar level of diversity in the Netherlands and the US. In both countries around 30% of people are born abroad. In the US around 72% are white and in the NL around 76% are ethnically Dutch. In Rotterdam in particular around half of the population was born to Non-Dutch parents. 1. https://www.indexmundi.com/united_states/demographics_profile.html https://www.indexmundi.com/united_states/demographics_profil... 2. https://www.indexmundi.com/netherlands/demographics_profile.html https://www.indexmundi.com/netherlands/demographics_profile.... 3. https://www.coe.int/en/web/interculturalcities/rotterdam https://www.coe.int/en/web/interculturalcities/rotterdam
JAlexoid 4y ago
Murder rates have been going down in all developed nations, regardless of the gun ownership statistics. Even being gun regulation advocate, I cannot accept the premise that banning guns will do much to reduce murder rates.
- AlecSchueler 4y ago
  But the homicide rate is still significantly higher where there is lax gun control right?
  - refurb 4y ago
    No, actually. Vermont has allowed people to carry a concealed weapons without a license - literally buy a handgun, stick it in your pants - and has had a consistently lower murder rate than Washington DC which banned handguns until recently.
    - AlecSchueler 4y ago
      I meant more in comparison to other nations in Europe for example. It's difficult to compare individual states within the US because of how guns travel across state lines. https://www.publichealth.columbia.edu/news/state-gun-laws-may-help-curb-violence-across-state-lines-study https://www.publichealth.columbia.edu/news/state-gun-laws-ma...
      - refurb 4y ago
        Czech Republic has very liberal gun laws, you can get a concealed carry permit with less effort than some US states and the murder rate is 0.72 per 100,000.
        AlecSchueler 4y ago
        That's fair.
systemtest 4y ago
Disclaimer: I live in The Netherlands. My high-school friend was killed on holiday shortly after takeoff when a Buk 9M38 surface-to-air missile shot the plane down, killing 196 Dutch civilians. A famous crime reporter got shot in the street for covering a story about a high ranking drug lord. A news outlet got shot with a bazooka. So lets do some statistics: How many American civilians in the past 10 years have been killed with a surface-to-air-missle, adjusted for population? Zero. 196 for The Netherlands. How many crime reporters got killed in that period? Five for the US, two for The Netherlands. How many news outlets got shot with a bazooka? I can't find any, but please correct me. One in The Netherlands. The thing with statistics is. You can make up anything you want to frame a certain view.
- AlecSchueler 4y ago
  I see your point but that incident didn't happen in a any way that can be tied to the regulatory measures that different states take, whereas gun crime can, so it feels like something of an apples and oranges comparison to me. Want to say as an aside from the discussion that I'm sorry to hear about your friend and I hope that you got all the support you deserved during that time and since.

notch898c 4y ago

>The rate of murder is 73 times more than the Netherlands. No the absolute number is 73x, the rate is like 8x. Since you've cherry picked a European state, I will now cherry pick the state New Hampshire. Murder rate New Hampshire: 0.9 / 100k [0] Murder rate Netherlands: ~0.6 / 100k [1] Also bear in mind the expected murder chance of the average person from the Netherlands dropped into the US is not expected to be anything like the US average murder rate. The US is not nearly as demographically homogenous as the Netherlands and someone with Dutch heritage experiences much closer to Dutch murder rates in the US. [0] https://247wallst.com/state/how-the-murder-rate-in-new-hampshire-compares-to-the-rest-of-the-country/ https://247wallst.com/state/how-the-murder-rate-in-new-hamps... [1] https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/VC.IHR.PSRC.P5?locations=NL https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/VC.IHR.PSRC.P5?location...

AlecSchueler 4y ago
Apologies for the mix up with the rate. 8x is still on the side of my argument though. I cherry picked the Netherlands because of the large amount of drug trade there. Every other country in Europe compared favorably to the United States. From what I can see there is a similar level of diversity in the Netherlands and the US. In both countries around 30% of people are born abroad. In the US around 72% are white and in the NL around 76% are ethnically Dutch. In Rotterdam in particular around half of the population was born to Non-Dutch parents. 1. https://www.indexmundi.com/united_states/demographics_profile.html https://www.indexmundi.com/united_states/demographics_profil... 2. https://www.indexmundi.com/netherlands/demographics_profile.html https://www.indexmundi.com/netherlands/demographics_profile.... 3. https://www.coe.int/en/web/interculturalcities/rotterdam https://www.coe.int/en/web/interculturalcities/rotterdam

JAlexoid 4y ago

Murder rates have been going down in all developed nations, regardless of the gun ownership statistics. Even being gun regulation advocate, I cannot accept the premise that banning guns will do much to reduce murder rates.

AlecSchueler 4y ago
But the homicide rate is still significantly higher where there is lax gun control right?
- refurb 4y ago
  No, actually. Vermont has allowed people to carry a concealed weapons without a license - literally buy a handgun, stick it in your pants - and has had a consistently lower murder rate than Washington DC which banned handguns until recently.
  - AlecSchueler 4y ago
    I meant more in comparison to other nations in Europe for example. It's difficult to compare individual states within the US because of how guns travel across state lines. https://www.publichealth.columbia.edu/news/state-gun-laws-may-help-curb-violence-across-state-lines-study https://www.publichealth.columbia.edu/news/state-gun-laws-ma...
    - refurb 4y ago
      Czech Republic has very liberal gun laws, you can get a concealed carry permit with less effort than some US states and the murder rate is 0.72 per 100,000.
      - AlecSchueler 4y ago
        That's fair.

systemtest 4y ago

Disclaimer: I live in The Netherlands. My high-school friend was killed on holiday shortly after takeoff when a Buk 9M38 surface-to-air missile shot the plane down, killing 196 Dutch civilians. A famous crime reporter got shot in the street for covering a story about a high ranking drug lord. A news outlet got shot with a bazooka. So lets do some statistics: How many American civilians in the past 10 years have been killed with a surface-to-air-missle, adjusted for population? Zero. 196 for The Netherlands. How many crime reporters got killed in that period? Five for the US, two for The Netherlands. How many news outlets got shot with a bazooka? I can't find any, but please correct me. One in The Netherlands. The thing with statistics is. You can make up anything you want to frame a certain view.

AlecSchueler 4y ago
I see your point but that incident didn't happen in a any way that can be tied to the regulatory measures that different states take, whereas gun crime can, so it feels like something of an apples and oranges comparison to me. Want to say as an aside from the discussion that I'm sorry to hear about your friend and I hope that you got all the support you deserved during that time and since.