3 ms·

The three main talking points here are (1) mtf in female sports, (2) mtf in women’s only physical spaces, and (3) children undergoing irreversible operations th

by onos 3y ago

The three main talking points here are (1) mtf in female sports, (2) mtf in women’s only physical spaces, and (3) children undergoing irreversible operations that they may later regret. The first two indeed involve a co flick of interest, granted not one that’s generally physically hurtful.

bhouston 3y ago
As the parent of two daughters I am not sure I would be super supportive of MtF in female sports at a competitive level if it actually occurred to my family. It would probably feel unfair to my daughters. But regardless, I don't support harassment of transgender people as Elon Musk now allows on Twitter. To me these are separate things.
- mongic 3y ago
  Being permitted to 'misgender' is relevant to criticizing policies that allow males to compete in women's and girl's sports. If you're citing one of the many examples of when this has happened, but are compelled to use 'she' rather than 'he' to refer to the male athlete, then it rather dilutes the point being made.
  - bhouston 3y ago
    You can still call people trans. You do not have to deny they are trans. Rather it is preventing a common method of harassing trans people.
    - mongic 3y ago
      It depends on the point of view from which such criticism is being made. Someone who holds a belief that trans-identifying males are women, but considers that they should be excluded from women's sports because of the long-lasting pubertal effects of testosterone, would likely have no issue with referring to one of these males as 'she'. However, someone who doesn't believe that that such males can be women, and that this is the primary reason why they shouldn't be eligible to compete in women's sports, is more likely to use 'he' in reference to one of these males, as it reflects their underlying philosophical view on the issue.
      - bhouston 3y ago
        I guess from my point of view, I do not care much if someone born a male now identifies as a women if it isn't affecting me. They have the freedom to do so. There are segments who have taken to misgendering them on purpose as a form of harassment and I think that is wrong. I view this argument as analogous to someone is trying to justify slurring other minorities. Why slur them? Just treat them as people who are just trying to get through life and all its challenges. Also all this focus on slurring a specific minority makes those doing the slurring seem mean, non-credible and non-compassionate to their fellow human beings. If someone starts slurring another minority, I will immediate dismiss anything they say next because they are showing they harbor hate - it isn't a rational discussion anymore, all facts are going to be distorted, things that lead to cognitive dissonance are going to be dismissed, and my motivations will be questioned. Who has time for that?
        mongic 3y ago
        Twitter's rule against 'misgendering' didn't just apply to people who were engaging in harassment though, it applied to everyone, and led to many campaigners for women's rights being banned from the platform. One example is Meghan Murphy, a high-profile Canadian feminist. She was discussing the case of a trans-identifying male who had sued several female beauticians - who offered their services solely to women - for refusing to do a Brazilian wax, which for this individual would have involved the handling of male genitalia. She referred to this male as 'him', and as a result was banned from Twitter for about four years (with her ban only being lifted after Musk's purchase of the company). So on one side we have a trans-identifying male who was using the Canadian legal system to try to punish women for refusing to touch his penis and testicles. On the other side, a feminist writer who referred to this male as 'he' and 'him' while criticizing him for this. In applying their 'misgendering' rule, Twitter took the side of the former and sanctioned the latter. By removing this rule, Twitter is allowing feminists like Murphy to speak freely about issues such as this on their platform.
        bhouston 3y ago
        I know about that case as a Canadian and it doesn’t require misgendering to discuss accurately. No one is forcing you or her to pretend she isn’t trans.

by onos 3y ago

bhouston 3y ago

As the parent of two daughters I am not sure I would be super supportive of MtF in female sports at a competitive level if it actually occurred to my family. It would probably feel unfair to my daughters. But regardless, I don't support harassment of transgender people as Elon Musk now allows on Twitter. To me these are separate things.

mongic 3y ago
Being permitted to 'misgender' is relevant to criticizing policies that allow males to compete in women's and girl's sports. If you're citing one of the many examples of when this has happened, but are compelled to use 'she' rather than 'he' to refer to the male athlete, then it rather dilutes the point being made.
- bhouston 3y ago
  You can still call people trans. You do not have to deny they are trans. Rather it is preventing a common method of harassing trans people.
  - mongic 3y ago
    It depends on the point of view from which such criticism is being made. Someone who holds a belief that trans-identifying males are women, but considers that they should be excluded from women's sports because of the long-lasting pubertal effects of testosterone, would likely have no issue with referring to one of these males as 'she'. However, someone who doesn't believe that that such males can be women, and that this is the primary reason why they shouldn't be eligible to compete in women's sports, is more likely to use 'he' in reference to one of these males, as it reflects their underlying philosophical view on the issue.
    - bhouston 3y ago
      I guess from my point of view, I do not care much if someone born a male now identifies as a women if it isn't affecting me. They have the freedom to do so. There are segments who have taken to misgendering them on purpose as a form of harassment and I think that is wrong. I view this argument as analogous to someone is trying to justify slurring other minorities. Why slur them? Just treat them as people who are just trying to get through life and all its challenges. Also all this focus on slurring a specific minority makes those doing the slurring seem mean, non-credible and non-compassionate to their fellow human beings. If someone starts slurring another minority, I will immediate dismiss anything they say next because they are showing they harbor hate - it isn't a rational discussion anymore, all facts are going to be distorted, things that lead to cognitive dissonance are going to be dismissed, and my motivations will be questioned. Who has time for that?
      - mongic 3y ago
        Twitter's rule against 'misgendering' didn't just apply to people who were engaging in harassment though, it applied to everyone, and led to many campaigners for women's rights being banned from the platform. One example is Meghan Murphy, a high-profile Canadian feminist. She was discussing the case of a trans-identifying male who had sued several female beauticians - who offered their services solely to women - for refusing to do a Brazilian wax, which for this individual would have involved the handling of male genitalia. She referred to this male as 'him', and as a result was banned from Twitter for about four years (with her ban only being lifted after Musk's purchase of the company). So on one side we have a trans-identifying male who was using the Canadian legal system to try to punish women for refusing to touch his penis and testicles. On the other side, a feminist writer who referred to this male as 'he' and 'him' while criticizing him for this. In applying their 'misgendering' rule, Twitter took the side of the former and sanctioned the latter. By removing this rule, Twitter is allowing feminists like Murphy to speak freely about issues such as this on their platform.
        bhouston 3y ago
        I know about that case as a Canadian and it doesn’t require misgendering to discuss accurately. No one is forcing you or her to pretend she isn’t trans.