6 ms·

Musk has many issues, but what is the point of bringing his grudge with Trans? The rocket is a great success and in the grand scale of things is worth the ego g

Musk has many issues, but what is the point of bringing his grudge with Trans? The rocket is a great success and in the grand scale of things is worth the ego grandstanding. The man has done nothing illegal and has accomplished a lot amazing things. Congrats to SpaceX, Elon, the Americans and Humanity. What good is freedom of thought and speech if one cannot exercise it? I probably drank the old american koolaid and have not yet had my sip of the new one.

shadowgovt 4y ago
> What good is freedom of thought and speech if one cannot exercise it? I'm pretty sure that calling out a celebrity billionaire's transphobia is exercising one's freedom of speech.
version_five 4y ago
You can see the other currently downvoted comment. It's like a religion that feels it needs to insert "God is great" or "in his divine wisdom" into every sentence, just to make sure nobody questions their piety.
bhouston 4y ago
I think a lot of articles and tweets are focusing on the failure incorrectly. Their views are coloured by wanting to see Elon fail because they don't like his views. This was at least a muted success and not an outright failure and it is just a stepping stone. I was trying to say, yes, Elon has pretty bad views these days, but this is still at least a semi-success, not a set back or failure.
- taylodl 4y ago
  SpaceX is successful despite of Elon Musk, not because of Elon Musk. SpaceX spends a lot of energy keeping Musks's insanity and emotional outbursts at bay. Tesla has also learned how to manage Musk, though not quite as successfully as SpaceX. Twitter is still figuring it out, but I'm sure that they too will learn how to manage Musk. I think it's useful to compare Musk with fire. Fire is useful, if controlled. Fire can be very damaging if not controlled. You have to control Musk while giving him the semblance that he's the one in control. Kudos to those who've successfully been able to pull that off.
  - bhouston 4y ago
    I've heard this a number of times. He has a strong vision and the capacity to bring people together to achieve it.
    - taylodl 4y ago
      As I said, fire is useful. Vision is definitely one of Elon's strengths, along with enough knowledge to understand feasibility. Execution doesn't appear to be one of his strengths, but he's made good hires for people who also recognize Elon's strengths and weaknesses and can successfully manage him.
kgwxd 4y ago
> What good is freedom of thought and speech if one cannot exercise it? Says the person questioning why other people are utilizing their freedom of thought and speech.
kibwen 4y ago
> I probably drank the old american koolaid and have not yet had my sip of the new one. The "old american koolaid" is to let your neighbor do whatever they please as long as "it neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg" (Thomas Jefferson). Trans people aren't hurting anybody, and it's a travesty that one of our major political parties has made demonizing trans people into a wedge issue as part of a manufactured culture war.
- onos 4y ago
  The three main talking points here are (1) mtf in female sports, (2) mtf in women’s only physical spaces, and (3) children undergoing irreversible operations that they may later regret. The first two indeed involve a co flick of interest, granted not one that’s generally physically hurtful.
  - bhouston 4y ago
    As the parent of two daughters I am not sure I would be super supportive of MtF in female sports at a competitive level if it actually occurred to my family. It would probably feel unfair to my daughters. But regardless, I don't support harassment of transgender people as Elon Musk now allows on Twitter. To me these are separate things.
    - mongic 4y ago
      Being permitted to 'misgender' is relevant to criticizing policies that allow males to compete in women's and girl's sports. If you're citing one of the many examples of when this has happened, but are compelled to use 'she' rather than 'he' to refer to the male athlete, then it rather dilutes the point being made.
      - bhouston 4y ago
        You can still call people trans. You do not have to deny they are trans. Rather it is preventing a common method of harassing trans people.
tshaddox 4y ago
> What good is freedom of thought and speech if one cannot exercise it? This is what I describe as the “worse is better” model of freedom. As if the only way we can measure freedom is by counting how many extremely awful things occur in the world and concluding that more awful things is a clear indicator that we have more freedom. Is this a uniquely American concept?
- eternalban 4y ago
  Karl Popper wasn't, strictly speaking, American: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Open_Society_and_Its_Enemies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Open_Society_and_Its_Enemi... The underlying theme is that a non-optimal system that nevertheless minimizes chances of tyranny and/or violence is better than say a society ruled by philosopher kings. So it's not so much that "more awful things is a clear indicator that we have more freedom", but rather that a system that takes it upon itself to stamp out "more awful things" (per whose definition?) will ultimately diminish freedom for all, and various "awful things" are certain to follow. It is a matter that is still subject to debate. What is your solution?
  - tshaddox 4y ago
    The dichotomy isn’t that we either laud the amount of bad things happening or stamp out freedom with tyrannical government. That’s precisely the ludicrous “worse is better” model I was criticizing. And I’m fairly aware of Popper. I largely share his views, particularly those in The Open Society and Its Enemies and The Logic of Scientific Discovery. I don’t think he would point to, for instance, high murder rates as an indicator of freedom in a society or a preponderance of pseudoscientific theories as an indicator of freedom in a scientific community.
    - eternalban 4y ago
      Of course not "lauding the amount of bad things". Rather we learn to live with some non-optimal outcomes as the price of preventing worst outcomes. Our system does not, and is not designed to, select the best, and sometimes very problematic individuals make a scene, but it denies the possibility of that becoming a permanent state of affairs.
citizenkeen 4y ago
He has his freedom of speech! So did the person you're replying to. That's what the old American freedom of speech meant: you can say dumb things and other people can say that what you said was dumb. The new koolaid is "I can say dumb things and if anybody calls me on it, I'm being oppressed." That has nothing to do with freedom of speech, there's no government here. Sounds like you've been drinking plenty of the new koolaid.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
elil17 4y ago
> The man has done nothing illegal https://www.reuters.com/legal/elon-musks-2018-tweet-tesla-union-campaign-illegal-us-court-rules-2023-03-31/ https://www.reuters.com/legal/elon-musks-2018-tweet-tesla-un... https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-new-racial-bias-trial/ https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-new-racial-bias-trial/ https://www.sec.gov/news/press-release/2018-219 https://www.sec.gov/news/press-release/2018-219 https://www.cbsnews.com/news/elon-musk-twitter-shareholder-lawsuit/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/elon-musk-twitter-shareholder-l... https://www.space.com/spacex-technician-coma-rocket-test-accident https://www.space.com/spacex-technician-coma-rocket-test-acc... https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/13/world/tesla-elon-musk-coronavirus-outbreak.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/13/world/tesla-elon-musk-cor... https://aa.law/blog/tesla-received-triple-the-amount-of-osha-complaints-than-the-10-largest-us-car-factories-combined/ https://aa.law/blog/tesla-received-triple-the-amount-of-osha... Full respect to all the workers who designed and built the rocket. But Elon Musk has absolutely done a bunch of crime.
dumpsterlid 4y ago
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gnulinux 4y ago
> but what is the point of bringing his grudge with Trans? Let's not pretend like he just has a "grudge" with trans folks. It goes many orders of magnitude beyond that. Perhaps he was not, and maybe he even still is not a transphobe, but right now he's tweeting like a full-blown transphobic maniac on Twitter. [1] That's a severely negative personality trait. Discriminating against a group of people simply because of the way they were born goes against the fundamental values of the Western society, freedoms, and should be criticized harshly at any avenue. It's relevant here, not because of Musk's speech (which I firmly believe every person is entitled to), but because Musk is an influential figure who contributes so much thought, inspiration, motivation and soft/hard influence to the world that it must be noted he's actively acting like an unhinged transphobe. This can be harmful to people and too much influence from a transphobic personality can be harmful for the society, in turn. Just like, a lot of influence from good people is good for society, a lot of influence from bad people is bad for society. It's worth noting. [1] We saw, in many instances not only Elon Musk but many other people exaggerating their personalities and beliefs on Twitter.
- mongic 4y ago
  > right now he's tweeting like a full-blown transphobic maniac on Twitter Are you sure? Seems he's mostly been tweeting about SpaceX and Twitter: https://twitter.com/search?q=from:elonmusk&src=typed_query&f=live https://twitter.com/search?q=from:elonmusk&src=typed_query&f... I can't see any recent tweets that match what you describe.

shadowgovt 4y ago

> What good is freedom of thought and speech if one cannot exercise it? I'm pretty sure that calling out a celebrity billionaire's transphobia is exercising one's freedom of speech.

version_five 4y ago

You can see the other currently downvoted comment. It's like a religion that feels it needs to insert "God is great" or "in his divine wisdom" into every sentence, just to make sure nobody questions their piety.

bhouston 4y ago

I think a lot of articles and tweets are focusing on the failure incorrectly. Their views are coloured by wanting to see Elon fail because they don't like his views. This was at least a muted success and not an outright failure and it is just a stepping stone. I was trying to say, yes, Elon has pretty bad views these days, but this is still at least a semi-success, not a set back or failure.

taylodl 4y ago
SpaceX is successful despite of Elon Musk, not because of Elon Musk. SpaceX spends a lot of energy keeping Musks's insanity and emotional outbursts at bay. Tesla has also learned how to manage Musk, though not quite as successfully as SpaceX. Twitter is still figuring it out, but I'm sure that they too will learn how to manage Musk. I think it's useful to compare Musk with fire. Fire is useful, if controlled. Fire can be very damaging if not controlled. You have to control Musk while giving him the semblance that he's the one in control. Kudos to those who've successfully been able to pull that off.
- bhouston 4y ago
  I've heard this a number of times. He has a strong vision and the capacity to bring people together to achieve it.
  - taylodl 4y ago
    As I said, fire is useful. Vision is definitely one of Elon's strengths, along with enough knowledge to understand feasibility. Execution doesn't appear to be one of his strengths, but he's made good hires for people who also recognize Elon's strengths and weaknesses and can successfully manage him.

kgwxd 4y ago

> What good is freedom of thought and speech if one cannot exercise it? Says the person questioning why other people are utilizing their freedom of thought and speech.

kibwen 4y ago

> I probably drank the old american koolaid and have not yet had my sip of the new one. The "old american koolaid" is to let your neighbor do whatever they please as long as "it neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg" (Thomas Jefferson). Trans people aren't hurting anybody, and it's a travesty that one of our major political parties has made demonizing trans people into a wedge issue as part of a manufactured culture war.

onos 4y ago
The three main talking points here are (1) mtf in female sports, (2) mtf in women’s only physical spaces, and (3) children undergoing irreversible operations that they may later regret. The first two indeed involve a co flick of interest, granted not one that’s generally physically hurtful.
- bhouston 4y ago
  As the parent of two daughters I am not sure I would be super supportive of MtF in female sports at a competitive level if it actually occurred to my family. It would probably feel unfair to my daughters. But regardless, I don't support harassment of transgender people as Elon Musk now allows on Twitter. To me these are separate things.
  - mongic 4y ago
    Being permitted to 'misgender' is relevant to criticizing policies that allow males to compete in women's and girl's sports. If you're citing one of the many examples of when this has happened, but are compelled to use 'she' rather than 'he' to refer to the male athlete, then it rather dilutes the point being made.
    - bhouston 4y ago
      You can still call people trans. You do not have to deny they are trans. Rather it is preventing a common method of harassing trans people.

tshaddox 4y ago

> What good is freedom of thought and speech if one cannot exercise it? This is what I describe as the “worse is better” model of freedom. As if the only way we can measure freedom is by counting how many extremely awful things occur in the world and concluding that more awful things is a clear indicator that we have more freedom. Is this a uniquely American concept?

eternalban 4y ago
Karl Popper wasn't, strictly speaking, American: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Open_Society_and_Its_Enemies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Open_Society_and_Its_Enemi... The underlying theme is that a non-optimal system that nevertheless minimizes chances of tyranny and/or violence is better than say a society ruled by philosopher kings. So it's not so much that "more awful things is a clear indicator that we have more freedom", but rather that a system that takes it upon itself to stamp out "more awful things" (per whose definition?) will ultimately diminish freedom for all, and various "awful things" are certain to follow. It is a matter that is still subject to debate. What is your solution?
- tshaddox 4y ago
  The dichotomy isn’t that we either laud the amount of bad things happening or stamp out freedom with tyrannical government. That’s precisely the ludicrous “worse is better” model I was criticizing. And I’m fairly aware of Popper. I largely share his views, particularly those in The Open Society and Its Enemies and The Logic of Scientific Discovery. I don’t think he would point to, for instance, high murder rates as an indicator of freedom in a society or a preponderance of pseudoscientific theories as an indicator of freedom in a scientific community.
  - eternalban 4y ago
    Of course not "lauding the amount of bad things". Rather we learn to live with some non-optimal outcomes as the price of preventing worst outcomes. Our system does not, and is not designed to, select the best, and sometimes very problematic individuals make a scene, but it denies the possibility of that becoming a permanent state of affairs.

citizenkeen 4y ago

He has his freedom of speech! So did the person you're replying to. That's what the old American freedom of speech meant: you can say dumb things and other people can say that what you said was dumb. The new koolaid is "I can say dumb things and if anybody calls me on it, I'm being oppressed." That has nothing to do with freedom of speech, there's no government here. Sounds like you've been drinking plenty of the new koolaid.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

elil17 4y ago

> The man has done nothing illegal https://www.reuters.com/legal/elon-musks-2018-tweet-tesla-union-campaign-illegal-us-court-rules-2023-03-31/ https://www.reuters.com/legal/elon-musks-2018-tweet-tesla-un... https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-new-racial-bias-trial/ https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-new-racial-bias-trial/ https://www.sec.gov/news/press-release/2018-219 https://www.sec.gov/news/press-release/2018-219 https://www.cbsnews.com/news/elon-musk-twitter-shareholder-lawsuit/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/elon-musk-twitter-shareholder-l... https://www.space.com/spacex-technician-coma-rocket-test-accident https://www.space.com/spacex-technician-coma-rocket-test-acc... https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/13/world/tesla-elon-musk-coronavirus-outbreak.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/13/world/tesla-elon-musk-cor... https://aa.law/blog/tesla-received-triple-the-amount-of-osha-complaints-than-the-10-largest-us-car-factories-combined/ https://aa.law/blog/tesla-received-triple-the-amount-of-osha... Full respect to all the workers who designed and built the rocket. But Elon Musk has absolutely done a bunch of crime.

dumpsterlid 4y ago

[dead]

gnulinux 4y ago

> but what is the point of bringing his grudge with Trans? Let's not pretend like he just has a "grudge" with trans folks. It goes many orders of magnitude beyond that. Perhaps he was not, and maybe he even still is not a transphobe, but right now he's tweeting like a full-blown transphobic maniac on Twitter. [1] That's a severely negative personality trait. Discriminating against a group of people simply because of the way they were born goes against the fundamental values of the Western society, freedoms, and should be criticized harshly at any avenue. It's relevant here, not because of Musk's speech (which I firmly believe every person is entitled to), but because Musk is an influential figure who contributes so much thought, inspiration, motivation and soft/hard influence to the world that it must be noted he's actively acting like an unhinged transphobe. This can be harmful to people and too much influence from a transphobic personality can be harmful for the society, in turn. Just like, a lot of influence from good people is good for society, a lot of influence from bad people is bad for society. It's worth noting. [1] We saw, in many instances not only Elon Musk but many other people exaggerating their personalities and beliefs on Twitter.

mongic 4y ago
> right now he's tweeting like a full-blown transphobic maniac on Twitter Are you sure? Seems he's mostly been tweeting about SpaceX and Twitter: https://twitter.com/search?q=from:elonmusk&src=typed_query&f=live https://twitter.com/search?q=from:elonmusk&src=typed_query&f... I can't see any recent tweets that match what you describe.