4 ms·

I'd imagine pharmaceutical interests in the USA in the mental illness treatment & maintenance field are depressed by this news - it's going to crush their profi

I'd imagine pharmaceutical interests in the USA in the mental illness treatment & maintenance field are depressed by this news - it's going to crush their profit model if successful: > "And it’s unclear whether approving MDMA on the basis of MAPS’s data would ease the way for other companies hoping to study and develop the drug, or whether anyone would even want to. MDMA has been around since 1912 and cannot be patented, creating little financial incentive." Not only that, but if people can improve their condition with three treatments to the point that they no longer need their daily dose of anti-depressant or ADHD medication (or alcohol / opiates / etc. for the self-medicating cohort) then overall drug consumption will drop steeply. This is probably good for social progress but poor for profit margins and ROI in the drug sector. The pharmaceutical industry makes a lot more money by selling maintenance programs in than it does by selling cures. For example: > "“Is curing patients a sustainable business model?” Goldman Sachs analysts ask?" https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2018/04/curing-disease-not-a-sustainable-business-model-goldman-sachs-analysts-say/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2018/04/curing-disease-n...

hammyhavoc 4y ago
I don't think it's going to replace ADHD medication whatsoever. How would that even work?
- Kirth 4y ago
  By fixing the underlying conditions that lead to the behaviour classified as ADHD rather than depending on stimulants as a(n admittedly very effective) crutch to power through them.
  - soylentcola 4y ago
    From what I understand, ADHD is typically thought to be the result of an inefficient (outside of an accepted typical range) reward/reinforcement system in the brain - whether due to not producing enough of the relevant neurotransmitters, or not being "sensitive" enough to them (yes, this is oversimplified). How would MDMA (or any drug) alter this? Stimulants used to treat ADHD typically work by either getting you to produce more of those neurotransmitters or getting them to stick around for longer by inhibiting reuptake. I'm not sure of any drug or treatment that could permanently change these things in the brain.
    - hammyhavoc 4y ago
      This is exactly my understanding of it. I also have ADHD.
    - banannaise 4y ago
      I think the idea is that neurodivergent people tend to have a lot of really damaging, highly ingrained thought patterns as a result of their time before being properly treated. Unwinding some of those might make you more effective both with and without medication -- although that's not to say medication would not continue to be useful.
  - kayodelycaon 4y ago
    ADHD is primarily a hardware problem. Unless MDMA can fundamentally change how nerves handle neurotransmitters, the effect is going to be temporary at best.
- bnjms 4y ago
  For non hyperactive types I believe there is commonly anxiety with the ADD which is alleviated by the small dose of amphetamine. Maybe MDMA helps reduce anxiety for the medium term after a dose? I don’t know if that’s been found scientifically yet. I do know MDMA clears anxiety during the high. Knowing what the lack of anxiety feels like could be very powerful paired with therapy to train a body to return to lower anxiety levels.
  - eimrine 4y ago
    Druggies who was on high doses of this report about "suicide tuesdays".
    - bnjms 4y ago
      You’ve changed the context from medical use to recreational by druggies with irresponsibly high doses feeling like suicide afterwards. I have a sense of the point you’re attempting but it’s murky and isn’t a useful response.
      - eimrine 4y ago
        But medics who has that information does not use HN unlike the druggies. Druggies report that effect of mdma might be a long-term but this is not a prolonged effect of the substance, this is just positive outcomes from a good social interaction session which may happen with significantly more probability if on mdma. For example: had a uncomfortable but long-term useful talk, could behave openly on some party after a long time without that experience and gained new best-friend for tens of years, danced better on some dance competition which resulted in participation of higher-level competitions, etc. Prolonged anti-depression effect is a killer feature of shrooms.
  - kayodelycaon 4y ago
    I don't see how this will help ADHD-I. This technique is already possible and done with temporary use of benzodiazepines, beta-blockers, or anti-depressants. Therapy isn't very effective because you can't focus on the techniques when you need them.
- GuB-42 4y ago
  MDMA is an amphetamine, like many ADHD medication, so it is not that much of a stretch to think that it can work. And to answer the "but you can't patent an old molecule", in fact, yes you can. Adderall is plain old amphetamine, but with a specific ratio of the D and L type, so it could be patented. The pharmaceutical industry is adept at making small tweaks to existing drugs, a supposed improvement according to their own studies, but most importantly, a way to get a patent.
  - hammyhavoc 4y ago
    I think you misunderstood something in the comment I replied to, which stated: > Not only that, but if people can improve their condition with three treatments to the point that they no longer need their daily dose of anti-depressant or ADHD medication (or alcohol / opiates / etc. for the self-medicating cohort) then overall drug consumption will drop steeply. The key thing here is the claim being made that three doses of MDMA will eliminate the need to take an existing ADHD medication. How would that work? It wouldn't. It's not possible.
    - photochemsyn 4y ago
      How would you know if you didn't at least try? The claim that the only way that ADHD symptoms can be managed successfully is with daily use of a fairly powerful stimulant-class drug seems equally implausible.
      - astrange 4y ago
        Stimulants aren't the only ADHD medication, but all the others are also daily use.
  - opportune 4y ago
    We don’t have to stretch, plenty of people have ADHD and have taken MDMA, I can tell you personally that MDMA is in no way a substitute for regular adhd medication. Like, not even close. MDMA is basically a social/lovey high that mildly distorts your vision and senses, it is not something you would take regularly to help focus on work. And taking it once isn’t going to help you focus better after taking it
cactusplant7374 4y ago
You can hardly blame them. So little is known about the brain.
musictubes 4y ago
MDMA will never be prescribed for ADHD for the same reason that Desoxyn (aka methamphetamine) is almost never prescribed for it. It is way too easy to use those for recreational purposes and have a high risk of being abused.

hammyhavoc 4y ago

I don't think it's going to replace ADHD medication whatsoever. How would that even work?

Kirth 4y ago
By fixing the underlying conditions that lead to the behaviour classified as ADHD rather than depending on stimulants as a(n admittedly very effective) crutch to power through them.
- soylentcola 4y ago
  From what I understand, ADHD is typically thought to be the result of an inefficient (outside of an accepted typical range) reward/reinforcement system in the brain - whether due to not producing enough of the relevant neurotransmitters, or not being "sensitive" enough to them (yes, this is oversimplified). How would MDMA (or any drug) alter this? Stimulants used to treat ADHD typically work by either getting you to produce more of those neurotransmitters or getting them to stick around for longer by inhibiting reuptake. I'm not sure of any drug or treatment that could permanently change these things in the brain.
  - hammyhavoc 4y ago
    This is exactly my understanding of it. I also have ADHD.
  - banannaise 4y ago
    I think the idea is that neurodivergent people tend to have a lot of really damaging, highly ingrained thought patterns as a result of their time before being properly treated. Unwinding some of those might make you more effective both with and without medication -- although that's not to say medication would not continue to be useful.
- kayodelycaon 4y ago
  ADHD is primarily a hardware problem. Unless MDMA can fundamentally change how nerves handle neurotransmitters, the effect is going to be temporary at best.
bnjms 4y ago
For non hyperactive types I believe there is commonly anxiety with the ADD which is alleviated by the small dose of amphetamine. Maybe MDMA helps reduce anxiety for the medium term after a dose? I don’t know if that’s been found scientifically yet. I do know MDMA clears anxiety during the high. Knowing what the lack of anxiety feels like could be very powerful paired with therapy to train a body to return to lower anxiety levels.
- eimrine 4y ago
  Druggies who was on high doses of this report about "suicide tuesdays".
  - bnjms 4y ago
    You’ve changed the context from medical use to recreational by druggies with irresponsibly high doses feeling like suicide afterwards. I have a sense of the point you’re attempting but it’s murky and isn’t a useful response.
    - eimrine 4y ago
      But medics who has that information does not use HN unlike the druggies. Druggies report that effect of mdma might be a long-term but this is not a prolonged effect of the substance, this is just positive outcomes from a good social interaction session which may happen with significantly more probability if on mdma. For example: had a uncomfortable but long-term useful talk, could behave openly on some party after a long time without that experience and gained new best-friend for tens of years, danced better on some dance competition which resulted in participation of higher-level competitions, etc. Prolonged anti-depression effect is a killer feature of shrooms.
- kayodelycaon 4y ago
  I don't see how this will help ADHD-I. This technique is already possible and done with temporary use of benzodiazepines, beta-blockers, or anti-depressants. Therapy isn't very effective because you can't focus on the techniques when you need them.
GuB-42 4y ago
MDMA is an amphetamine, like many ADHD medication, so it is not that much of a stretch to think that it can work. And to answer the "but you can't patent an old molecule", in fact, yes you can. Adderall is plain old amphetamine, but with a specific ratio of the D and L type, so it could be patented. The pharmaceutical industry is adept at making small tweaks to existing drugs, a supposed improvement according to their own studies, but most importantly, a way to get a patent.
- hammyhavoc 4y ago
  I think you misunderstood something in the comment I replied to, which stated: > Not only that, but if people can improve their condition with three treatments to the point that they no longer need their daily dose of anti-depressant or ADHD medication (or alcohol / opiates / etc. for the self-medicating cohort) then overall drug consumption will drop steeply. The key thing here is the claim being made that three doses of MDMA will eliminate the need to take an existing ADHD medication. How would that work? It wouldn't. It's not possible.
  - photochemsyn 4y ago
    How would you know if you didn't at least try? The claim that the only way that ADHD symptoms can be managed successfully is with daily use of a fairly powerful stimulant-class drug seems equally implausible.
    - astrange 4y ago
      Stimulants aren't the only ADHD medication, but all the others are also daily use.
- opportune 4y ago
  We don’t have to stretch, plenty of people have ADHD and have taken MDMA, I can tell you personally that MDMA is in no way a substitute for regular adhd medication. Like, not even close. MDMA is basically a social/lovey high that mildly distorts your vision and senses, it is not something you would take regularly to help focus on work. And taking it once isn’t going to help you focus better after taking it

cactusplant7374 4y ago

You can hardly blame them. So little is known about the brain.

musictubes 4y ago

MDMA will never be prescribed for ADHD for the same reason that Desoxyn (aka methamphetamine) is almost never prescribed for it. It is way too easy to use those for recreational purposes and have a high risk of being abused.