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My views have changed about this a lot over the years. I've gone from feeling that medication is largely unnecessary and that there are alternative routes to fe

My views have changed about this a lot over the years. I've gone from feeling that medication is largely unnecessary and that there are alternative routes to feeling that carefully directed medications can and often should be used along with alternative therapies, when applicable. Just throwing medication at a problem and calling it a day will never be useful, but seeing a lot of people find success with a mix of medications (amphetamines, ketamine, mushrooms, etc.) with therapy has been kind of eye opening. A lot of this stems from blanket stigmatization of some drugs versus others. Fixing society is a much larger (and ultimately fluid, unsolvable) problem so I feel like whatever people can do to find contentment should be on the table.

chiefalchemist 4y ago
> Fixing society is a much larger (and ultimately fluid, unsolvable) problem so I feel like whatever people can do to find contentme But why is it unsolvable? As the parent comment noted, these issues aren't as prevalent in other cultures. So why here? Why is these so much pain that needs to be medicated? I'm not anti-meds. I think the re-introduction of MDMA and other formerly alternative meds is a good thing as they are more effective. And there will always going to be some people who need such assistance. However, we can still ask why? Why are so many suffering so much that they need meds?
- nkozyra 4y ago
  > Why is it unsolvable? Because as we solve societal problems new ones will arise. There's no utopian ideal. > As the parent comment noted, these issue dont They don't what?
  - chiefalchemist 4y ago
    So we are content and complicit and stick with the status quo? That mindset itself is a problem. A problem that would still have us living in caves.
    - nkozyra 4y ago
      > So we are content and complicit and stick with the status quo? Why can't we be content but not "complicit" and still address issues? I'd argue having a growing population with mental health issues is less prepared to functionally address larger problems. This feels like it's piggy backing off of a caricature of a zoned out druggie who doesn't care what's happening around them.
  - themitigating 4y ago
    Perfection isn't required and as others have noted there are countries with far less problems so obviously it is possible
    - nkozyra 4y ago
      > Perfection isn't required and as others have noted there are countries with far less problems so obviously it is possible Never said it was impossible to improve. I said it was impossible to "fix" society.
      - themitigating 4y ago
        Fix doesn't mean perfection either. Come on, it means bring things to a level consistent with other similar countries. Your absolute take on this is a deflection to avoid any change
        nkozyra 4y ago
        > Your absolute take on this is a deflection to avoid any change I have never said we shouldn't improve things. That's very much a strawman.
- vinyl7 4y ago
  It's unsolvable because there's no money to be made in fixing society. At least until society decays enough that no one bothers participating anymore and the economy starts to crumble. I've seen an increase in the pursuite of hedonism over the past decade, and what it would take to steer society away from hedonism would be some huge event like 9/11 or ww3 to get people's eyes off the inordinate consumerism and chasing money. Or maybe just fix the economy, but the oligarchs would rather hoard money than ensure a healthy society.
  - chiefalchemist 4y ago
    That . It might not be a priority, but that still doesn't make it unsolvable.
- fasterik 4y ago
  >As the parent comment noted, these issues aren't as prevalent in other cultures They said it without citing a source. There is evidence that there is higher treatment seeking for PTSD in high-income countries, including the US, but that doesn't mean it's exclusive to the US or that it isn't prevalent in lower-income countries with less access to mental healthcare. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6034513/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6034513/
- JAlexoid 4y ago
  > As the parent comment noted, these issues aren't as prevalent in other cultures. So why here? Why is these so much pain that needs to be medicated? They aren't "less prevalent". They're underdiagnosed and untreated. Remember anti-vaxxers that yell about how vaccines caused autism? Except that western medicine started to correctly diagnose a lot of neurodivergent conditions better, that's why we realised that a lot of kids that can't stay still have a form of ADHD.
- BurningFrog 4y ago
  If it is solvable, where are the already "fixed" societies?
- CuriouslyC 4y ago
  Poor family and community ties, a capitalism driven culture of dehumanization and commodification, and even people who are "making it" have often sacrificed and stressed a lot to escape poverty, so it's trading one pain for another.
0xcde4c3db 4y ago
It's important to keep in mind that while the combination of drugs+psychotherapy works better than either alone on average across a population, this doesn't mean that everyone should be pursuing both. Some people do not respond (or even respond negatively) to psychotherapy, just like with drug therapy. Psychotherapy as an industry also has some pretty serious problems with professional and scientific standards that tend to get swept under the rug because so many people lean into psychotherapy triumphalism (e.g. declaring that drugs are only good for enabling psychotherapy, or that everyone should be seeing a therapist).

chiefalchemist 4y ago

> Fixing society is a much larger (and ultimately fluid, unsolvable) problem so I feel like whatever people can do to find contentme But why is it unsolvable? As the parent comment noted, these issues aren't as prevalent in other cultures. So why here? Why is these so much pain that needs to be medicated? I'm not anti-meds. I think the re-introduction of MDMA and other formerly alternative meds is a good thing as they are more effective. And there will always going to be some people who need such assistance. However, we can still ask why? Why are so many suffering so much that they need meds?

nkozyra 4y ago
> Why is it unsolvable? Because as we solve societal problems new ones will arise. There's no utopian ideal. > As the parent comment noted, these issue dont They don't what?
- chiefalchemist 4y ago
  So we are content and complicit and stick with the status quo? That mindset itself is a problem. A problem that would still have us living in caves.
  - nkozyra 4y ago
    > So we are content and complicit and stick with the status quo? Why can't we be content but not "complicit" and still address issues? I'd argue having a growing population with mental health issues is less prepared to functionally address larger problems. This feels like it's piggy backing off of a caricature of a zoned out druggie who doesn't care what's happening around them.
- themitigating 4y ago
  Perfection isn't required and as others have noted there are countries with far less problems so obviously it is possible
  - nkozyra 4y ago
    > Perfection isn't required and as others have noted there are countries with far less problems so obviously it is possible Never said it was impossible to improve. I said it was impossible to "fix" society.
    - themitigating 4y ago
      Fix doesn't mean perfection either. Come on, it means bring things to a level consistent with other similar countries. Your absolute take on this is a deflection to avoid any change
      - nkozyra 4y ago
        > Your absolute take on this is a deflection to avoid any change I have never said we shouldn't improve things. That's very much a strawman.
vinyl7 4y ago
It's unsolvable because there's no money to be made in fixing society. At least until society decays enough that no one bothers participating anymore and the economy starts to crumble. I've seen an increase in the pursuite of hedonism over the past decade, and what it would take to steer society away from hedonism would be some huge event like 9/11 or ww3 to get people's eyes off the inordinate consumerism and chasing money. Or maybe just fix the economy, but the oligarchs would rather hoard money than ensure a healthy society.
- chiefalchemist 4y ago
  That . It might not be a priority, but that still doesn't make it unsolvable.
fasterik 4y ago
>As the parent comment noted, these issues aren't as prevalent in other cultures They said it without citing a source. There is evidence that there is higher treatment seeking for PTSD in high-income countries, including the US, but that doesn't mean it's exclusive to the US or that it isn't prevalent in lower-income countries with less access to mental healthcare. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6034513/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6034513/
JAlexoid 4y ago
> As the parent comment noted, these issues aren't as prevalent in other cultures. So why here? Why is these so much pain that needs to be medicated? They aren't "less prevalent". They're underdiagnosed and untreated. Remember anti-vaxxers that yell about how vaccines caused autism? Except that western medicine started to correctly diagnose a lot of neurodivergent conditions better, that's why we realised that a lot of kids that can't stay still have a form of ADHD.
BurningFrog 4y ago
If it is solvable, where are the already "fixed" societies?
CuriouslyC 4y ago
Poor family and community ties, a capitalism driven culture of dehumanization and commodification, and even people who are "making it" have often sacrificed and stressed a lot to escape poverty, so it's trading one pain for another.

0xcde4c3db 4y ago

It's important to keep in mind that while the combination of drugs+psychotherapy works better than either alone on average across a population, this doesn't mean that everyone should be pursuing both. Some people do not respond (or even respond negatively) to psychotherapy, just like with drug therapy. Psychotherapy as an industry also has some pretty serious problems with professional and scientific standards that tend to get swept under the rug because so many people lean into psychotherapy triumphalism (e.g. declaring that drugs are only good for enabling psychotherapy, or that everyone should be seeing a therapist).