6 ms·

Not that I know of (so I'd like to see if someone can suggest anything). In practice, what I have always done is to decompose the "object" into a set of compon

by Pamar 3y ago

Not that I know of (so I'd like to see if someone can suggest anything). In practice, what I have always done is to decompose the "object" into a set of components. Each of these components can be in a number of states, and there are rules to set the header state depending on what the substates are. Practical example: ------------ Business order #2849 State: PSH (Partially shipped) Item 2849.01 State ONO (Ordered, not confirmed) Item 2849.02 State STR (Received, stored) Item 2849.03 State SSH (Shipped by supplier) Item 2849.04 State STR (Received, stored) ------------- Where the "business rules" are something like: * "If all items are SSH or better, status=SSH" * "If at leat one item is ONO, status=POR" (on order, not fully confirmed) ... Etc.

winstonprivacy 3y ago
That is precisely what I'm doing now and it's the best solution I've found so far. However it is brittle and it takes quite a long time to iron out the edge cases where things can happen that you didn't anticipate. I have one system that has been more or less stable for two months and once a week, it fails inexplicably (dumping no logs either). Whenever this happens, I find myself writing a ton of debug code hoping to catch it.
- bdunks 3y ago
  I worked on a highly complex, high-volume automated procurement sourcing system many years ago. Each Purchase Requisition (PR) -> RFQ -> Bid Response -> Purchase Order could have many-to-many relationships, splitting & bundling at each line item (even the arrows above don't give the right idea, as things could go to re-bid, long-term contract with task orders, etc.). We tried for nearly two years to get the status/state of each PR line item to update in real-time as events occurred during follow-on steps, but it was extremely brittle. We finally added an intermediary queue and centralized all the logic in batch. Anytime something happened that might trigger a state (not verified), we tossed it in the queue. Then, we processed the queue every five minutes through a rules engine that was a classic factory pattern (a favorite anti-pattern). Every time the PR # ran through the rules engine, it would have a deterministic result. Sometimes it would pass through 10-20 times with no state change, but at least it was predictable. We thought it would be too inefficient, potentially processing the same PRs 100s of times without any actual change to the state. However, the servers handled it fine, and it was real-time "enough" the users didn't notice a lag. We went from fixing issues several times a week to no changes for the remaining two years I was on the project.
  - Pamar 3y ago
    Not sure about the specifics but yes, in cases like the one I described in my oriignal post, the "header" state will not change immediately but some kind of service thread would periodically revisit the active headers (i.e. anything that had not reached the final stable state) and check all the items in order to update the header state. That worked fine for us. Also, I have recently (< six months ago) used a SM to build a module in the application I am working on and I am quite happy how it allowed us to quickly adapt to the corner cases that inevitably started cropping up after deploying the module. I am fairly convinced that a different approach would have make been much more difficult to adapt, and that testing for subtle interactions of different states would have been much more complicated.
- Pamar 3y ago
  I agree on the fact that you may have edge cases cropping up in production... still, in my experience this approach makes adjusting (either by introducing new States, or by altering the logic that guides a State Transition) much easier because you can reason about the problem in terms of a specific item and a specific State Transition at the time, even if this happens to 10k records at the same time, and there are another 10M records of different type and in different states. I used a SM no more than six months ago to process vouchers and voucher redemption from a third party service and while we had no less than 10 changes after deploying in prod... each one was easy to analyze and the actual fix was like 2-3 lines of code.
lenkite 3y ago
These is analogous to kubernetes conditions in the old-debate between explicit state machines with phases/transitions and events/conditions for k8s resources. https://maelvls.dev/kubernetes-conditions/ https://maelvls.dev/kubernetes-conditions/
- Pamar 3y ago
  Interesting, thanks! I have zero experience (or knowledge) of Kubernetes, but I feel this somehow strengthens my idea that SM can be a very powerful tool indeed when dealing with some specific problem.
AtlasBarfed 3y ago
Are those really all the states? If you have a rigid state machine, you better know all the edge cases and states. Architecturally state machines seem simple but they area computational power beneath stack machines and of course Turing machines. So next thing you want is a simple rules engine. Well next comes the rete processing rabbit hole, etc. We want to think computation is just state transition graphs but real computation even just business logic goes off the rails real fast.
- Pamar 3y ago
  Sorry, seen this only now. Yep, I do consider these states, and yes, I am aware that trying to scale up to a "simple" rule engine is a huge effort. Personally I always worked with relatively simple state machines and always wrote actual code to handle new cases or edge conditions that were not in the original design. As a tool (and at the tactical level), these work fine. Making these an overarching paradigm for your whole system, and especially adding a rule engine is something I never did and I would be wary to try, personally.

by Pamar 3y ago

winstonprivacy 3y ago

That is precisely what I'm doing now and it's the best solution I've found so far. However it is brittle and it takes quite a long time to iron out the edge cases where things can happen that you didn't anticipate. I have one system that has been more or less stable for two months and once a week, it fails inexplicably (dumping no logs either). Whenever this happens, I find myself writing a ton of debug code hoping to catch it.

bdunks 3y ago
I worked on a highly complex, high-volume automated procurement sourcing system many years ago. Each Purchase Requisition (PR) -> RFQ -> Bid Response -> Purchase Order could have many-to-many relationships, splitting & bundling at each line item (even the arrows above don't give the right idea, as things could go to re-bid, long-term contract with task orders, etc.). We tried for nearly two years to get the status/state of each PR line item to update in real-time as events occurred during follow-on steps, but it was extremely brittle. We finally added an intermediary queue and centralized all the logic in batch. Anytime something happened that might trigger a state (not verified), we tossed it in the queue. Then, we processed the queue every five minutes through a rules engine that was a classic factory pattern (a favorite anti-pattern). Every time the PR # ran through the rules engine, it would have a deterministic result. Sometimes it would pass through 10-20 times with no state change, but at least it was predictable. We thought it would be too inefficient, potentially processing the same PRs 100s of times without any actual change to the state. However, the servers handled it fine, and it was real-time "enough" the users didn't notice a lag. We went from fixing issues several times a week to no changes for the remaining two years I was on the project.
- Pamar 3y ago
  Not sure about the specifics but yes, in cases like the one I described in my oriignal post, the "header" state will not change immediately but some kind of service thread would periodically revisit the active headers (i.e. anything that had not reached the final stable state) and check all the items in order to update the header state. That worked fine for us. Also, I have recently (< six months ago) used a SM to build a module in the application I am working on and I am quite happy how it allowed us to quickly adapt to the corner cases that inevitably started cropping up after deploying the module. I am fairly convinced that a different approach would have make been much more difficult to adapt, and that testing for subtle interactions of different states would have been much more complicated.
Pamar 3y ago
I agree on the fact that you may have edge cases cropping up in production... still, in my experience this approach makes adjusting (either by introducing new States, or by altering the logic that guides a State Transition) much easier because you can reason about the problem in terms of a specific item and a specific State Transition at the time, even if this happens to 10k records at the same time, and there are another 10M records of different type and in different states. I used a SM no more than six months ago to process vouchers and voucher redemption from a third party service and while we had no less than 10 changes after deploying in prod... each one was easy to analyze and the actual fix was like 2-3 lines of code.

lenkite 3y ago

These is analogous to kubernetes conditions in the old-debate between explicit state machines with phases/transitions and events/conditions for k8s resources. https://maelvls.dev/kubernetes-conditions/ https://maelvls.dev/kubernetes-conditions/

Pamar 3y ago
Interesting, thanks! I have zero experience (or knowledge) of Kubernetes, but I feel this somehow strengthens my idea that SM can be a very powerful tool indeed when dealing with some specific problem.

AtlasBarfed 3y ago

Are those really all the states? If you have a rigid state machine, you better know all the edge cases and states. Architecturally state machines seem simple but they area computational power beneath stack machines and of course Turing machines. So next thing you want is a simple rules engine. Well next comes the rete processing rabbit hole, etc. We want to think computation is just state transition graphs but real computation even just business logic goes off the rails real fast.

Pamar 3y ago
Sorry, seen this only now. Yep, I do consider these states, and yes, I am aware that trying to scale up to a "simple" rule engine is a huge effort. Personally I always worked with relatively simple state machines and always wrote actual code to handle new cases or edge conditions that were not in the original design. As a tool (and at the tactical level), these work fine. Making these an overarching paradigm for your whole system, and especially adding a rule engine is something I never did and I would be wary to try, personally.