49 ms·

US could soon approve MDMA therapy

423 points by headalgorithm 3y ago

HopenHeyHi 3y ago
[flagged]
- JAlexoid 3y ago
  You mean that we're going back to the Moon? Maybe even Mars?
  - coretx 3y ago
    No, a MK Ultra reboot.
    - HopenHeyHi 3y ago
      Pretty sure that is happening too. You might even be an unwitting participant right now. Bet Manson type murders will happen as well. Race riots. A Kennedy type young president will show up and get assassinated. There will be a new space race, this time with China. AI Beatles-type mega band will emerge. A crowdsourced Woodstock some place. Sit ins, sleep ins. People on TV growing out their hair. Time is a flat circle man. History repeats itself, first as tragedy, second as farce.
      - logicchains 3y ago
        >A Kennedy type young president will show up and get assassinate RFK Junior, whose father and uncle were killed by the CIA, is literally running for president! And running on an anti-establishment platform too; the CIA must be licking their lips at the chance to take out another Kennedy.
- hiddencost 3y ago
  I think we're doing just fine with Rick Doblin at MAPS. To pull a quote from Hunter S Thompson: "We are all wired into a survival trip now. No more of the speed that fueled that 60's. That was the fatal flaw in Tim Leary's trip. He crashed around America selling "consciousness expansion" without ever giving a thought to the grim meat-hook realities that were lying in wait for all the people who took him seriously... All those pathetically eager acid freaks who thought they could buy Peace and Understanding for three bucks a hit. But their loss and failure is ours too. What Leary took down with him was the central illusion of a whole life-style that he helped create... a generation of permanent cripples, failed seekers, who never understood the essential old-mystic fallacy of the Acid Culture: the desperate assumption that somebody... or at least some force - is tending the light at the end of the tunnel."
  - bratwurst3000 3y ago
    I love this quote so much . It is rly nailing a certain view of the 60s and explains much of the coming 70s. There is also another quote in the book about reaching the high water mark and the wave coming back…. Awesomeness book about the end of the 60s
    - HopenHeyHi 3y ago
      So now, less than five years later, you can go up on a steep hill in Las Vegas and look West, and with the right kind of eyes you can almost see the high-water mark—that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back.
    - achenet 3y ago
      the wave speech: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUgs2O7Okqc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUgs2O7Okqc
  - 52-6F-62 3y ago
    Thompson was just disillusioned. He most certainly saw everything Leary did. That’s what fed his sardonicism. Where we’re going now is possibly stranger than Leary imagined. But definitely in line with what he hoped. Check out Andrew Gallimore’s research and writing (Okinawa Institute of Science and Tech)
    - publichealthrow 3y ago
      [dead]
- abyssin 3y ago
  I’ve been disappointed lately by the strategy of some lobbying organizations to use science to push an agenda that has nothing to do with science, and more to do with some spirituality coming as a consequence of individual psychedelic awakenings. The psychedelic community still has a lot of work to do in order to manage noetic insights in a rational manner.
  - rtkwe 3y ago
    Except there are pretty strong indications of medical benefits to MDMA and psilocybin in therapy for things like PTSD and treatment resistant depression. Studies are frustratingly limited because of the extreme scheduling of the drugs that lasted for decades.
    - abyssin 3y ago
      I believe in the medical potential of compounds like MDMA and I don’t think the science is especially flawed. What I’m questioning is the motivation of some lobbying organizations’ members.
      - starkd 3y ago
        But do you believe it because of the science or because you really really want to believe it? That's a serious question. I don't expect a ready answer.
        eimrine 3y ago
        Your forgot to mention one more possible case: it is not science because of some political reasons.
        abyssin 3y ago
        Research was made impossible for 30 years but now there’s a thriving literature.
- publichealthrow 3y ago
  > We just need a Timothy Leary type professor to kick off this decade into what is clearly set to be a repeat of the 1960s. I registered an account for the day via Tor, I encourage others to do so while that's possible. (In a non-abusive way.) American Millennial here. Sorry... United States resident. Gotta be mindful 'America' has many countries... We don't need some professor handing out acid tabs, we need professors who avoid politics entirely but strongly encourage their students to vote, then educate them such that we repeal the bullshit drug laws Nixon passed back during Vietnam as a way to coerce those who wouldn't fight in that travesty. To be fair, I've actually not tried LSD, the one time I was offered it was the night before I presented at a workshop. (I mistrusted the person, since when I said "Uh, I read on Erowid it lasts for about 8 hours and makes you stay up, maybe tonight's a bad night" they got aggrieved... every other time I just said "hey, I've never tried it before I'm gonna stick to beer but let me know if you need help finding your way out of this techno bunker" and it was very live and let live.) What we NEED is a relaxation around cannabis. It doesn't... permeate... in the same way tobacco smoke does, it doesn't last as long as psychadelics, and a bad "trip" isn't as intense. Ever since Google was founded I've seen people be weird about drug use in hiring and firing, paired with the alternate path of "serving your country" in order to trade salary for security. Why should I go work for the FBI or NSA for a couple years, ignore illegal activity, then quit in a huff having been put through an expensive program, in terms of time and the sense that you are taking a slot away from others who could do useful work if they put them on CSAM instead of drug shit? For those of us who have a very specific set of skills, the phreaks and weirdos, it's wintry economic climate out there if you don't want to kill brown people with robots, but do want to protect the homeland, because time and time again the folks who claim to want to protect us try to coerce us into weakening the internet, especially if you didn't go to an "elite" school. A concept that's interesting in our world since for example, Harvard's kinda down there in the ranking for CS. (The times folks refuse to listen to 'the data" are often the biggest tells.)
  - HopenHeyHi 3y ago
    > we need professors who avoid politics entirely We desperately need that, yes. It is much too late, unfortunately.
  - 3y ago
dpflan 3y ago
Basically enough time and research has happened and cultural perception changes such that the formerly taboo science is less taboo.
thejackgoode 3y ago
Can someone share any relevant experience with this? Best would be if you did it properly under supervision of clinical professional, or if you are a professional here, by any chance. Doesn’t matter if it’s US or not.
- hospitalJail 3y ago
  Back in 2018 had just gotten a surprise extra TV from my friend for Christmas. Now we had a 48in tv and a 42in tv. I wasnt sure what to do with it, I wanted 2 TVs for my 2 monitor setup(PC + Wireless mouse and keyboard). My wife cared about appearance more than anything. This was quite contentious. We happened to take MDMA for the first time(at home) and we talked about the TV situation. We figured out a way to have both of them in the living room and make it look good. We were so impressed that we ended up designing our backyard landscaping after that.
  - hammyhavoc 3y ago
    You didn't use it in a medicinal context though. You used it recreationally and thought about a problem then arrived at a solution. There's only x ways you could have fit the TVs in, and I'm sure most people could have figured it out without taking anything, it's hardly a difficult task.
    - eimrine 3y ago
      how to use mdma in medical way? does it requires obeying to some owner of some kind of medical license?
      - hammyhavoc 3y ago
        Medicinally, ergo, if someone has depression, they can use it to overcome it (apparently). Recreationally means that you don't have a medical issue that you are trying to solve and are taking it just to take it.
        3y ago
openstep 3y ago
For anyone interested, I highly recommend these two books: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PiHKAL https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PiHKAL https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TiHKAL https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TiHKAL It's a fascinating read about the chemist Alexander Shulgin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Shulgin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Shulgin
- goolz 3y ago
  Hamilton's Pharmacopeia has some wonderful exchanges between Hamilton, Sasha and Ann. What beautiful souls, who brought so much light to this world.
  - jseliger 3y ago
    If you read Phikal, you will see some not-great comments on Sasha's treatment of his first wife.
    - xyzwave 3y ago
      You’ll also see profound examples of unconditional love and companionship between Sasha and Ann throughout the entire book.
    - goolz 3y ago
      Life is complicated. So our the relationships we forge with people. I do not condone the mistreatment of others. And it saddens me to read this, but we all have darkness inside of us, even if a little. It can be tough co-existing, especially with those we love very much. I guess I just wanted to see the joy but you are not wrong in pointing out that Sasha is human. Quite. And as the other commenter mentioned, there was an abundance of love in that relationship too. That much is evident.
cpncrunch 3y ago
“blinding was not formally assessed during the study”
- starkd 3y ago
  I did not notice that. So, then it really doesn't tell us anything new. The article gives away the game here: >> But Doblin still envisions treatment centres sprouting up around the world — he predicts that more than 6,000 will emerge in the United States alone — where people with PTSD and other psychiatric illnesses can safely and legally use MDMA and other psychedelics under the guidance of therapists. Beyond this, he hopes ultimately for full legalization that would allow anyone to take the drugs however they wish. “MAPS has been the beacon to kind of take on this work,” says neuroscientist Amy Kruse, who is chief investment officer at venture capital firm Satori Neuro and is based in Annapolis, Maryland. “There are many people that can benefit from this treatment, and I think it shows a pathway for the potential rescheduling of other molecules.” They are breathless in anticipation of a billion dollar industry. They even include this link: https://www.bloomberg.com/press-releases/2022-07-18/psychedelic-therapeutics-market-worth-8-31-billion-by-2028-exclusive-report-by-insightace-analytic https://www.bloomberg.com/press-releases/2022-07-18/psychede...
  - cpncrunch 3y ago
    >I did not notice that. So, then it really doesn't tell us anything new. It was in the linked article: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-021-01336-3 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-021-01336-3 It's always good to go to the sources when looking at these potentially overhyped news articles. I would love this to be the answer to depression, but I'm somewhat skeptical. I'm also cognizant of the power of the placebo effect (and related psychological factors) in changing the brain, having fully recovered from ME/CFS and severe depression/anxiety myself.
    - starkd 3y ago
      During Covid pandemic, I found it quite remarkable how some research studies got thrown to the side, while others were promoted as the standard. I really don't know which ones were truly good studies, but the speed with which they were dispensed or upheld with little outside discussion revealed to me there is a lot of politics at work in deciding which ones are authoritative.
lockhouse 3y ago
Given the reputation of MDMA, I wonder if this could also help with certain types of sexual dysfunction, such as unwanted low libido.
- eimrine 3y ago
  that works only to females, for males the desired substance is 2cb.
  - lockhouse 3y ago
    I could be mistaken, but I believe it is predominately females that are effected by low sexual desire.
    - eimrine 3y ago
      but not only females want to increase it ;-)
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
  - justatdotin 3y ago
    if you have both on hand, I recommend the 2C-B at the tail of the MDMA
- bagacrap 3y ago
  "it provokes the desire, but it takes away the performance" - Shakespeare, on MDMA (whether he knew it or not)
- MrScruff 3y ago
  Not sure what reputation you're talking about? It alters your capacity for empathy, not your sex drive.
  - eimrine 3y ago
Glench 3y ago
Personally, I left tech in large part to become a therapist doing psychedelic-assisted clinical work when it becomes legal. It really does seem like it can be a potent tool for relieving great suffering. You can read a little about my story here: http://glench.com/WhyIQuitTechAndBecameATherapist/ http://glench.com/WhyIQuitTechAndBecameATherapist/
- mettamage 3y ago
  1% chance that I'd go the same route just because of your comment. I have a bsc. in psychology, so partially already there to become a licensed clinical psychologist. It'd be one hell of a career switch though. I guess, so was yours :) Edit: I just read your blog post about it. Damn! This is illuminating. It'll definitely help me in my journey. Thanks! Also, definitely envious that you got to work with Bret Victor. A few years ago, I really wanted to but given I'm from the EU and he didn't seem to be looking, I never messaged him. I think I should have. @haswell I read your comment. I'm happy to know that as well :)
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - haswell 3y ago
    Replying again since I didn’t manage to re-parent my comment fast enough! I suspect based on your username that we share some common interests. If you ever want to chat about these topics and the things pushing (pulling?) me in this direction, ping me (email in profile). Best of luck on your journey.
- pier25 3y ago
  Very inspiring story. You probably already know but Oregon started licensing recently for psilocybin therapy. https://www.oregon.gov/oha/PH/PREVENTIONWELLNESS/Pages/Psilocybin-License-Facilitator.aspx https://www.oregon.gov/oha/PH/PREVENTIONWELLNESS/Pages/Psilo...
- haswell 3y ago
  I’m a year into a sabbatical after spending almost 20 years in tech. I’m currently seriously considering a similar career change, as daunting as it seems at first glance. It’s pretty interesting to find comment threads like this in this particular moment of my life. I think there’s something about being an empathic person in an environment that values systems thinking. As I’ve cultivated that mindset and skillset, it has become more and more obvious that the world needs systems thinkers outside of tech. As a person who benefited greatly from a therapist who helped me apply this kind of thinking to my own life, I’ve learned just how impactful that can be. I don’t know exactly what the next thing looks like yet, but it’s fascinating and informative to see others who have made or are considering the same career change. Thanks for sharing this.
baggsie 3y ago
I take valafaxine / effexor for depression and I remember for the first week or so getting slightly high like as if I'd taken a low dosage of E which was my drug of choice (I had a highly enjoyable albeit mistaken early 20s). I often wonder if there a correlation between my predilection for MDMA and my success with venlafaxine (which saved my life). On a political note it is perverse how alcohol which often renders people violent and risk taking is celebrated, whilst a substance that causes one to dance, hug and spends hours discussing and friendly debating Marxist political theory is distained.
- dpflan 3y ago
  Alcohol has an extremely long history in humanity; synthesized chemicals less so (comparatively speaking). The alcohol industry is ingrained and well established and clearly wants to keep its influence and profits. Prohibition in the US in the early 20th century was a bust. The sad thing is the familiarity with alcohol and its established position as legal vice give it sway and acceptance, when in reality, it is a disastrous and destructive chemical for which there are many safer non-depressive substitutes.
- gwd 3y ago
  > Alcohol I think the real issue [EDIT with trying to restrict alcohol] is that alcohol is so easy to produce. I've got some "tea wine" brewing ATM that consists of tea, sugar, and bread yeast. You could literally make hard apple cider with just pressed apple juice in a jar with a lid loose enough to let the CO2 escape; the apples will have wild yeast on them already. No idea how to make MDMA, but I presume it's nowhere near that easy.
  - OkayPhysicist 3y ago
    It's not that easy, but it's not exactly difficult, either. I've seen more complicated baking recipes. The hard part is not having the DEA kick down your door, shoot your dog, and throw you in a cage.
    - gwd 3y ago
bluetomcat 3y ago
As an outsider, that American obsession with prescripted medication seems maddening. Many of these conditions are caused by underlying societal factors and are nowhere near as widespread outside the US. The American solution is to throw more pills at the problem, or ostracise the patients not willing to take that route. Even children are offered an ever larger number of pills, and are constantly challenged about their self-identification.
- thomastjeffery 3y ago
  If a treebranch falls on me, should I limit treatment to wind-based therapy?
- nkozyra 3y ago
  My views have changed about this a lot over the years. I've gone from feeling that medication is largely unnecessary and that there are alternative routes to feeling that carefully directed medications can and often should be used along with alternative therapies, when applicable. Just throwing medication at a problem and calling it a day will never be useful, but seeing a lot of people find success with a mix of medications (amphetamines, ketamine, mushrooms, etc.) with therapy has been kind of eye opening. A lot of this stems from blanket stigmatization of some drugs versus others. Fixing society is a much larger (and ultimately fluid, unsolvable) problem so I feel like whatever people can do to find contentment should be on the table.
  - chiefalchemist 3y ago
    > Fixing society is a much larger (and ultimately fluid, unsolvable) problem so I feel like whatever people can do to find contentme But why is it unsolvable? As the parent comment noted, these issues aren't as prevalent in other cultures. So why here? Why is these so much pain that needs to be medicated? I'm not anti-meds. I think the re-introduction of MDMA and other formerly alternative meds is a good thing as they are more effective. And there will always going to be some people who need such assistance. However, we can still ask why? Why are so many suffering so much that they need meds?
hospitalJail 3y ago
I've been hearing about this for years. I've come to the reality that the future is using science instead of Physicians and buying medicine from other countries who don't have cartels in control of the medical industry.
- rootusrootus 3y ago
  You may be right, though I expect the 'science' part will be entirely optional, based on our recent experience. In fact, I expect it to be a hinderance and deliberately ignored.
6_6_6 3y ago
climbing it is hard so there are shortcuts. mountain remains mountain regardless
- 52-6F-62 3y ago
  Not shortcuts. Anyone who's taken any psychedelic will tell you that. They're maps of the mountain passes, to use your analogy. (Or maybe maps to the maps)
  - sleight42 3y ago
    Ketamine therapy recipient. Accurate.
Simulacra 3y ago
My husband did ketamine therapy last year and I think it saved his life. He had suffered from depression and PTSD since his time in the military, and no amount of medications and therapies could breakthrough. Ketemine saved him and we're 11 months out and he's still doing amazing.
- sleight42 3y ago
  Stellate Ganglion Block is amazing for PTSD. I've had IV ketamine. I experienced perhaps a 20-30% improvement. After bilateral SGB: order of magnitude improvement. Getting triggered, I use to take hours or days to recover. Now, it can be minutes to hours. I'm not kidding. My life is immeasurably improved. Cannot recommend the Stellate Institute in Annapolis, MD enough. For PTSD, please, if you can, seek out ultrasound guided SGB.
say_it_as_it_is 3y ago
The social and financial cost of poor mental health of veterans is worth exploring all viable treatment pathways, including those involving MDMA and psilocybin. The remaining issue that needs to be addressed is the change of mindset of an entire industry of mental health professionals who will reach for psychoactive treatment as a last resort, after patients have exhausted all other options offered by pharmaceutical companies.
bulbosaur123 3y ago
When heroin therapy
- 55555 3y ago
  Do you not live on the west coast? There's literally free heroin clinics all over.
55555 3y ago
Sweet I can't wait until I can get it prescribed online by answering a questionnaire for $25 and have some shady doctor in Florida ship me a gram of molly in the mail. Sorry autocorrect I mean I can't wait for more startup innovation in the telehealth space.
- dpflan 3y ago
  Sure, it will happen, but maybe it can be better regulated. But maybe it goes well with those ivermectin doses you also got prescribed over Zoom...
  - fallingknife 3y ago
    How about no. I shouldn't have to ask permission from bureaucrats and pay doctors if I think a medication can help me. I've taken adderall for 15 years now, and I still have to pay a doctor $200 (he doesn't take insurance) every 3 months for my prescription. That's about $12,000 I've paid him now, and he doesn't do a damn thing.
    - dpflan 3y ago
      It's a money making scheme for sure, with gatekeepers and entrenched agents, not all medical providers are ethical...
- bnjms 3y ago
  Laws can be fixed to address this. ADHD laws are being changed to address the pop up online mills from during covid.
  - naasking 3y ago
    > Laws can be fixed to address this. ADHD laws are being changed to address the pop up online mills from during covid Right, and harming all sorts of people in the process: https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/the-government-is-making-telemedicine https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/the-government-is-maki... Seriously, why does anyone seriously think "this needs fixing"?
photochemsyn 3y ago
I'd imagine pharmaceutical interests in the USA in the mental illness treatment & maintenance field are depressed by this news - it's going to crush their profit model if successful: > "And it’s unclear whether approving MDMA on the basis of MAPS’s data would ease the way for other companies hoping to study and develop the drug, or whether anyone would even want to. MDMA has been around since 1912 and cannot be patented, creating little financial incentive." Not only that, but if people can improve their condition with three treatments to the point that they no longer need their daily dose of anti-depressant or ADHD medication (or alcohol / opiates / etc. for the self-medicating cohort) then overall drug consumption will drop steeply. This is probably good for social progress but poor for profit margins and ROI in the drug sector. The pharmaceutical industry makes a lot more money by selling maintenance programs in than it does by selling cures. For example: > "“Is curing patients a sustainable business model?” Goldman Sachs analysts ask?" https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2018/04/curing-disease-not-a-sustainable-business-model-goldman-sachs-analysts-say/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2018/04/curing-disease-n...
- hammyhavoc 3y ago
  I don't think it's going to replace ADHD medication whatsoever. How would that even work?
  - Kirth 3y ago
    By fixing the underlying conditions that lead to the behaviour classified as ADHD rather than depending on stimulants as a(n admittedly very effective) crutch to power through them.
    - soylentcola 3y ago
      From what I understand, ADHD is typically thought to be the result of an inefficient (outside of an accepted typical range) reward/reinforcement system in the brain - whether due to not producing enough of the relevant neurotransmitters, or not being "sensitive" enough to them (yes, this is oversimplified). How would MDMA (or any drug) alter this? Stimulants used to treat ADHD typically work by either getting you to produce more of those neurotransmitters or getting them to stick around for longer by inhibiting reuptake. I'm not sure of any drug or treatment that could permanently change these things in the brain.
davidw 3y ago
Oregon recently legalized "shrooms" in therapeutical settings and is gearing up for that to start: https://www.bendbulletin.com/localstate/oregons-first-licensed-psilocybin-facilitators-want-to-change-the-world/article_af4f9740-de33-11ed-ac25-8718727d0353.html https://www.bendbulletin.com/localstate/oregons-first-licens...
- goolz 3y ago
  I find this to be a great start and have had some very productive results with medicinal shrooms that I got in D.C. I would say that the experiences bordered on the profound and definitely helped me move past some recent near-death trauma in my life. While I am not as much of a fan of MDMA I could see a similar situation where, if done responsibly, it could yield wonderful results. Best of luck to all the researchers out there trying to make this possible. RIP Sasha and Ann.
  - sleight42 3y ago
    Live near DC. Color me curious. The "gifting" scheme of DC seems sketchy AF to me: an awkward and awful compromise to sidestep useful regulation that would create more safety, reliability, and transparency. Am I wrong?
    - goolz 3y ago
      To be honest, it has always been quite easy. Last time I simply went in, plus I am out of state. It has become MUCH more above board recently.
abhaynayar 3y ago
I do feel that something like this could help me. I've spent quite a bit of time solving some of my problems around anxiety and fear, but progress is slow, if at all. And sometimes I feel like I just need a "click" in my mind to change perspective. I know what my problem is, when I'm looking at myself as an observer, but it is just so hard to get out of it. I have been making steady progress by reading up and working on my self "naturally", but it sure would help if something external could make things easier. Unfortunately I don't know if these drug therapies will ever come to India.
chriscappuccio 3y ago
"an era of psychedelic medicine" these platitudes are deceiving sure, some people will get an advantage from these treatments never the less, this is no revolution. in US during the early 80s we had MDMA being made in huge quantities and being consumed in clubs, in addition to therapists using it in guided sessions. for 40 years since, the likes of rick doblin and his associates have been trying to push for this treatment. the reason the government is now seriously considering this is because of the needs of combat veterans. it works for PTSD where nothing else in the pharmacopeia does. there are very strong psychedelics like 5-meo-dmt and ibogaine and to some degree ayahuasca and mushrooms that work perhaps even better. that's basically it for treating serious mental problems in post-combat vets. for many people in those extreme mental health crisis situations, they are coming to private clinics outside of the USA to receive these treatments, the government needs to fix this situation because it's ridiculous. despite all this, the use case for MDMA and other psychedelics in the general population is less well understood. certainly, we should explore it, and perhaps it will help to improve our relationships with these drugs in general to have a positive, healthy way to use them that steers them us the right direction. at least, a framework that we can reference. i just don't know that all of this is going to be "an era" or a revolution or whatever people have in their minds. mental health in this country is at al all time low as far as i can tell. if we can even make a dent, that's great. if we start to improve some previously unfixable situations for people, great. we'll need our best abilities to get through what's coming next. as an aside, rick doblin took almost 40 years to do what peter thiel's company did in 4.
- tootie 3y ago
  Something interesting I learned in my own personal medical journal is that the most popular treatment for cataplexy is sodium oxybate which is very closely related to GHB (aka Rohypnol). It's well-studied, proven effective and widely prescribed. There's even fights over patents. My point being, that this runs counter to any narrative the illicit street drugs are anathema to traditional research. Doctors and biologists do treat all chemicals as chemicals and will develop treatments based on evidence. The evidence behind MDMA (and hallucinogens and ketamine) is compelling, but historically hasn't been worth elevating above other treatments. In the case of cataplexy, there isn't really any other viable treatment so oxybate immediately became the first choice.
dokem 3y ago
Or just do drugs by yourself or with friends and not around some stranger who guides you to state approved answers. Also do mushrooms, not this shit. Only reason they're pushing this brain-melting stuff is because they can make a buck. 'actually drugs are good now. Just give us your credit card and insurance info and step right this way'. Fuck off. Do drugs in the woods and sort your shit out like we've been doing for thousands of years. Get out of here nerd.
- achenet 3y ago
  I get what you're saying, and I've basically only done the "cowboy-style drop acid/MDMA/shrooms in random settings" and sorted my shit out that way (well, some of it, at least) myself, and honestly, it's worked out pretty well for me. But I've also met a few folks that have been deeply traumatized by bad trips - one particularly painful example is someone who saw a friend he loved fall to her death whilst tripping on shrooms. Responsible tripping is important. There's a reason trip-sitters, good setting, etc are generally recommended. and the last bit 'get out of here nerd' was really uncalled for. You make yourself look... ungentlemanly at best. I'd go as far as saying you just made yourself seem like an absolute twat, but I'm sure you're a kind person deep down and maybe you're just upset by 'the man' co-opting your edgy lifestyle choices like a hipster upset by his/her favorite band becoming popular and this is how you express that :3 If this helps people heal their trauma and have nicer lives, I think we should support, not everyone can be cool kids with easy access to drugs like us ;)
  - dokem 3y ago
    That's the thing. Tripping and self reflecting isn't edgy. It's been made to seem edgy. Someone died while doing drugs? Guess we should only sell beer at the psych office too so they can save us. And cut your self righteous bullshit about internet comments being uncalled for. Trauma and overcoming, i.e, the human experience, isn't new. These mega institutions sticking their whole fist up our ass is. I'm not against the idea that there needs to be 'the man'. But people are sold the idea that it's only ok or 'safe' to trip in a doctors office I think we need to get a grip. Might as well fuck in front of them too.
AlwaysRock 3y ago
Does anyone have a timeline of what the history of this has been? Because I'm fairly positive that I was going to sign up for MDMA therapy for chronic pain in Chicago ~5 years ago because a clinic nearby offered it. But when I got around to it insurance regulations had changed and was no longer going to cover part of it so it was going to be incredibly expensive. It's possible that was ketamine therapy but I thought it was mdma.
- cactusplant7374 3y ago
  Ketamine is sometimes used for chronic pain. It’s very expensive if the IV route is used.
  - AlwaysRock 3y ago
    Got it. It must have been Ketamine then.
- chimeracoder 3y ago
  > Because I'm fairly positive that I was going to sign up for MDMA therapy for chronic pain in Chicago ~5 years ago because a clinic nearby offered it. Very highly doubtful. MDMA is an amphetamine, and use of amphetamines for pain management is pretty rare. And even among amphetamines, MDMA is pretty undesireable for that purpose, due to its rapid development of tolerance compared to other amphetamines and risks of lasting negative side effects with repeated use in short durations - which rules out nearly all use cases for physical pain management. > It's possible that was ketamine therapy Ketamine is used to treat both acute and chronic pain, so this is much more plausible.
robg 3y ago
Keep in mind that approvals don’t need to be prescription based. Consider the value of quality assurance and drug labeling. Tylenol can readily kill and the importance of knowing what’s in something. Therapists don’t have the authority to prescribe but could still support a session.
jackbeck 3y ago
Rick Doblin recently went on a Joe Rogan podcast where he went more in depth about his experience with this.
- tootie 3y ago
  Was he on in between Ivermectin and DMT enthusiasts? Not that MDMA treatments are definitely bunk, but Doblin seems like he's promoting himself as much as he's interested in helping people.
vonnik 3y ago
Contrary data point to encourage caution with MDMA: MDMA can reset your dopamine baseline much lower. That is, after you come down, you may feel depressed, and it may be hard to climb out of that depression for a while. Use caution please.
- caseyohara 3y ago
  I think you mean serotonin. MDMA causes greater release of serotonin and norepinephrine than of dopamine, and dopamine resets to baseline much faster than serotonin. > MDMA-exposed primates showed reduced numbers of serotonergic neurons 7 years later, indicating that some of MDMA’s effect on the brain can be long lasting. > Low serotonin is associated with poor memory and depressed mood, thus these findings are consistent with studies in humans that have shown that some people who use MDMA regularly experience confusion, depression, anxiety, paranoia, and impairment of memory and attention processes. In addition, studies have found that the extent of MDMA use in humans correlates with a decrease in serotonin metabolites and other markers of serotonin function and the degree of memory impairment. Great resource with lots of citations: https://nida.nih.gov/publications/research-reports/mdma-ecstasy-abuse/what-are-mdmas-effects-on-brain https://nida.nih.gov/publications/research-reports/mdma-ecst...
  - projectazorian 3y ago
    While doing MDMA in excess is a bad idea, it's worth noting that these studies have a lot of potential confounders. One example is that PTSD also causes "confusion, depression, anxiety, paranoia, and impairment of memory and attention processes." And it's likely that some people with PTSD are self-medicating with MDMA.
    - chimeracoder 3y ago
      > While doing MDMA in excess is a bad idea, it's worth noting that these studies have a lot of potential confounders. > > One example is that PTSD also causes "confusion, depression, anxiety, paranoia, and impairment of memory and attention processes." And it's likely that some people with PTSD are self-medicating with MDMA. The longer-term effects of MDMA are actually fairly well-established, in part because the mechanism of action is known and the relevant effects can be directly measured. It's not just a matter of symptomatic evaluation.
shp0ngle 3y ago
dude weed lmao
BSOhealth 3y ago
I see all the GPT stuff and whatnot, and see that and AI/ML entering so many domains/markets. But psychedelics and the human experience are not something we can automate and I wonder if AI will allow us to deploy more people to help and guide others through life, experiences, and relationships (all IRL).
sleight42 3y ago
Great. Psilocybin please. That seems to offer the best lasting benefit per studies.
462436347 3y ago
Almost 350 comments, none of which mention how dangerous MDMA is, especially to the kidneys, the heart, and the serotonergic neurons of the brain?
- buildbot 3y ago
  Well, I have no idea personally about MDMA, but many, many drugs are very dangerous to those organs and neurons. For example, any anti-fungal is pretty toxic to you too. Or Chemo. Acetaminophen (Tylenol) is not easy on your liver. Everything in medicine has a risk factor that must be weighed against the benefits.
  - 462436347 3y ago
    Comparing it to chemotherapy doesn't really undermine my point, does it? And the ultimate goal of the proponents is not just to get these drugs made available via prescription, but to make them as legal as marijuana.
- graypegg 3y ago
  The dose makes the poison, as with most medication I would imagine.
- tbalsam 3y ago
  Please read the original Phase III and earlier studies where they thoroughly address these questions under the treatment modalities being tested. The process for drug approval is extremely rigorous for a reason, and does have some downsides as a result. Let's not negate that work please by ignoring all of the hard work that's already been done to show exceptionally safe viability within the context it's being used in. As noted above/below in different comments, the dose/dosing period/etc always makes a difference in whether a drug is harmful or helpful. In this case, the benefits strongly outweigh the downsides within this particular narrow kind of usecase, and of course hopefully we'll be able to get an even better handle on that in a broader set of examples in the ongoing Phase IV studies. Plus, it's not like MDMA is some new chemical or anything like that. It's pretty darn well characterized under a variety of treatment/usage conditions at this point.
jmpman 3y ago
This should be a legal therapy when under supervision of a psychologist. I’d like it on my death bed.

423 points by headalgorithm 3y ago

HopenHeyHi 3y ago

[flagged]

JAlexoid 3y ago
You mean that we're going back to the Moon? Maybe even Mars?
- coretx 3y ago
  No, a MK Ultra reboot.
  - HopenHeyHi 3y ago
    Pretty sure that is happening too. You might even be an unwitting participant right now. Bet Manson type murders will happen as well. Race riots. A Kennedy type young president will show up and get assassinated. There will be a new space race, this time with China. AI Beatles-type mega band will emerge. A crowdsourced Woodstock some place. Sit ins, sleep ins. People on TV growing out their hair. Time is a flat circle man. History repeats itself, first as tragedy, second as farce.
    - logicchains 3y ago
      >A Kennedy type young president will show up and get assassinate RFK Junior, whose father and uncle were killed by the CIA, is literally running for president! And running on an anti-establishment platform too; the CIA must be licking their lips at the chance to take out another Kennedy.
hiddencost 3y ago
I think we're doing just fine with Rick Doblin at MAPS. To pull a quote from Hunter S Thompson: "We are all wired into a survival trip now. No more of the speed that fueled that 60's. That was the fatal flaw in Tim Leary's trip. He crashed around America selling "consciousness expansion" without ever giving a thought to the grim meat-hook realities that were lying in wait for all the people who took him seriously... All those pathetically eager acid freaks who thought they could buy Peace and Understanding for three bucks a hit. But their loss and failure is ours too. What Leary took down with him was the central illusion of a whole life-style that he helped create... a generation of permanent cripples, failed seekers, who never understood the essential old-mystic fallacy of the Acid Culture: the desperate assumption that somebody... or at least some force - is tending the light at the end of the tunnel."
- bratwurst3000 3y ago
  I love this quote so much . It is rly nailing a certain view of the 60s and explains much of the coming 70s. There is also another quote in the book about reaching the high water mark and the wave coming back…. Awesomeness book about the end of the 60s
  - HopenHeyHi 3y ago
    So now, less than five years later, you can go up on a steep hill in Las Vegas and look West, and with the right kind of eyes you can almost see the high-water mark—that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back.
  - achenet 3y ago
    the wave speech: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUgs2O7Okqc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUgs2O7Okqc
- 52-6F-62 3y ago
  Thompson was just disillusioned. He most certainly saw everything Leary did. That’s what fed his sardonicism. Where we’re going now is possibly stranger than Leary imagined. But definitely in line with what he hoped. Check out Andrew Gallimore’s research and writing (Okinawa Institute of Science and Tech)
  - publichealthrow 3y ago
    [dead]
abyssin 3y ago
I’ve been disappointed lately by the strategy of some lobbying organizations to use science to push an agenda that has nothing to do with science, and more to do with some spirituality coming as a consequence of individual psychedelic awakenings. The psychedelic community still has a lot of work to do in order to manage noetic insights in a rational manner.
- rtkwe 3y ago
  Except there are pretty strong indications of medical benefits to MDMA and psilocybin in therapy for things like PTSD and treatment resistant depression. Studies are frustratingly limited because of the extreme scheduling of the drugs that lasted for decades.
  - abyssin 3y ago
    I believe in the medical potential of compounds like MDMA and I don’t think the science is especially flawed. What I’m questioning is the motivation of some lobbying organizations’ members.
    - starkd 3y ago
      But do you believe it because of the science or because you really really want to believe it? That's a serious question. I don't expect a ready answer.
      - eimrine 3y ago
        Your forgot to mention one more possible case: it is not science because of some political reasons.
        abyssin 3y ago
        Research was made impossible for 30 years but now there’s a thriving literature.
publichealthrow 3y ago
> We just need a Timothy Leary type professor to kick off this decade into what is clearly set to be a repeat of the 1960s. I registered an account for the day via Tor, I encourage others to do so while that's possible. (In a non-abusive way.) American Millennial here. Sorry... United States resident. Gotta be mindful 'America' has many countries... We don't need some professor handing out acid tabs, we need professors who avoid politics entirely but strongly encourage their students to vote, then educate them such that we repeal the bullshit drug laws Nixon passed back during Vietnam as a way to coerce those who wouldn't fight in that travesty. To be fair, I've actually not tried LSD, the one time I was offered it was the night before I presented at a workshop. (I mistrusted the person, since when I said "Uh, I read on Erowid it lasts for about 8 hours and makes you stay up, maybe tonight's a bad night" they got aggrieved... every other time I just said "hey, I've never tried it before I'm gonna stick to beer but let me know if you need help finding your way out of this techno bunker" and it was very live and let live.) What we NEED is a relaxation around cannabis. It doesn't... permeate... in the same way tobacco smoke does, it doesn't last as long as psychadelics, and a bad "trip" isn't as intense. Ever since Google was founded I've seen people be weird about drug use in hiring and firing, paired with the alternate path of "serving your country" in order to trade salary for security. Why should I go work for the FBI or NSA for a couple years, ignore illegal activity, then quit in a huff having been put through an expensive program, in terms of time and the sense that you are taking a slot away from others who could do useful work if they put them on CSAM instead of drug shit? For those of us who have a very specific set of skills, the phreaks and weirdos, it's wintry economic climate out there if you don't want to kill brown people with robots, but do want to protect the homeland, because time and time again the folks who claim to want to protect us try to coerce us into weakening the internet, especially if you didn't go to an "elite" school. A concept that's interesting in our world since for example, Harvard's kinda down there in the ranking for CS. (The times folks refuse to listen to 'the data" are often the biggest tells.)
- HopenHeyHi 3y ago
  > we need professors who avoid politics entirely We desperately need that, yes. It is much too late, unfortunately.
- 3y ago

dpflan 3y ago

Basically enough time and research has happened and cultural perception changes such that the formerly taboo science is less taboo.

thejackgoode 3y ago

Can someone share any relevant experience with this? Best would be if you did it properly under supervision of clinical professional, or if you are a professional here, by any chance. Doesn’t matter if it’s US or not.

hospitalJail 3y ago
Back in 2018 had just gotten a surprise extra TV from my friend for Christmas. Now we had a 48in tv and a 42in tv. I wasnt sure what to do with it, I wanted 2 TVs for my 2 monitor setup(PC + Wireless mouse and keyboard). My wife cared about appearance more than anything. This was quite contentious. We happened to take MDMA for the first time(at home) and we talked about the TV situation. We figured out a way to have both of them in the living room and make it look good. We were so impressed that we ended up designing our backyard landscaping after that.
- hammyhavoc 3y ago
  You didn't use it in a medicinal context though. You used it recreationally and thought about a problem then arrived at a solution. There's only x ways you could have fit the TVs in, and I'm sure most people could have figured it out without taking anything, it's hardly a difficult task.
  - eimrine 3y ago
    how to use mdma in medical way? does it requires obeying to some owner of some kind of medical license?
    - hammyhavoc 3y ago
      Medicinally, ergo, if someone has depression, they can use it to overcome it (apparently). Recreationally means that you don't have a medical issue that you are trying to solve and are taking it just to take it.
      - 3y ago

openstep 3y ago

For anyone interested, I highly recommend these two books: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PiHKAL https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PiHKAL https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TiHKAL https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TiHKAL It's a fascinating read about the chemist Alexander Shulgin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Shulgin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Shulgin

goolz 3y ago
Hamilton's Pharmacopeia has some wonderful exchanges between Hamilton, Sasha and Ann. What beautiful souls, who brought so much light to this world.
- jseliger 3y ago
  If you read Phikal, you will see some not-great comments on Sasha's treatment of his first wife.
  - xyzwave 3y ago
    You’ll also see profound examples of unconditional love and companionship between Sasha and Ann throughout the entire book.
  - goolz 3y ago
    Life is complicated. So our the relationships we forge with people. I do not condone the mistreatment of others. And it saddens me to read this, but we all have darkness inside of us, even if a little. It can be tough co-existing, especially with those we love very much. I guess I just wanted to see the joy but you are not wrong in pointing out that Sasha is human. Quite. And as the other commenter mentioned, there was an abundance of love in that relationship too. That much is evident.

cpncrunch 3y ago

“blinding was not formally assessed during the study”

starkd 3y ago
I did not notice that. So, then it really doesn't tell us anything new. The article gives away the game here: >> But Doblin still envisions treatment centres sprouting up around the world — he predicts that more than 6,000 will emerge in the United States alone — where people with PTSD and other psychiatric illnesses can safely and legally use MDMA and other psychedelics under the guidance of therapists. Beyond this, he hopes ultimately for full legalization that would allow anyone to take the drugs however they wish. “MAPS has been the beacon to kind of take on this work,” says neuroscientist Amy Kruse, who is chief investment officer at venture capital firm Satori Neuro and is based in Annapolis, Maryland. “There are many people that can benefit from this treatment, and I think it shows a pathway for the potential rescheduling of other molecules.” They are breathless in anticipation of a billion dollar industry. They even include this link: https://www.bloomberg.com/press-releases/2022-07-18/psychedelic-therapeutics-market-worth-8-31-billion-by-2028-exclusive-report-by-insightace-analytic https://www.bloomberg.com/press-releases/2022-07-18/psychede...
- cpncrunch 3y ago
  >I did not notice that. So, then it really doesn't tell us anything new. It was in the linked article: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-021-01336-3 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-021-01336-3 It's always good to go to the sources when looking at these potentially overhyped news articles. I would love this to be the answer to depression, but I'm somewhat skeptical. I'm also cognizant of the power of the placebo effect (and related psychological factors) in changing the brain, having fully recovered from ME/CFS and severe depression/anxiety myself.
  - starkd 3y ago
    During Covid pandemic, I found it quite remarkable how some research studies got thrown to the side, while others were promoted as the standard. I really don't know which ones were truly good studies, but the speed with which they were dispensed or upheld with little outside discussion revealed to me there is a lot of politics at work in deciding which ones are authoritative.

lockhouse 3y ago

Given the reputation of MDMA, I wonder if this could also help with certain types of sexual dysfunction, such as unwanted low libido.

eimrine 3y ago
that works only to females, for males the desired substance is 2cb.
- lockhouse 3y ago
  I could be mistaken, but I believe it is predominately females that are effected by low sexual desire.
  - eimrine 3y ago
    but not only females want to increase it ;-)
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
- justatdotin 3y ago
  if you have both on hand, I recommend the 2C-B at the tail of the MDMA
bagacrap 3y ago
"it provokes the desire, but it takes away the performance" - Shakespeare, on MDMA (whether he knew it or not)
MrScruff 3y ago
Not sure what reputation you're talking about? It alters your capacity for empathy, not your sex drive.
- eimrine 3y ago

Glench 3y ago

Personally, I left tech in large part to become a therapist doing psychedelic-assisted clinical work when it becomes legal. It really does seem like it can be a potent tool for relieving great suffering. You can read a little about my story here: http://glench.com/WhyIQuitTechAndBecameATherapist/ http://glench.com/WhyIQuitTechAndBecameATherapist/

mettamage 3y ago
1% chance that I'd go the same route just because of your comment. I have a bsc. in psychology, so partially already there to become a licensed clinical psychologist. It'd be one hell of a career switch though. I guess, so was yours :) Edit: I just read your blog post about it. Damn! This is illuminating. It'll definitely help me in my journey. Thanks! Also, definitely envious that you got to work with Bret Victor. A few years ago, I really wanted to but given I'm from the EU and he didn't seem to be looking, I never messaged him. I think I should have. @haswell I read your comment. I'm happy to know that as well :)
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- haswell 3y ago
  Replying again since I didn’t manage to re-parent my comment fast enough! I suspect based on your username that we share some common interests. If you ever want to chat about these topics and the things pushing (pulling?) me in this direction, ping me (email in profile). Best of luck on your journey.
pier25 3y ago
Very inspiring story. You probably already know but Oregon started licensing recently for psilocybin therapy. https://www.oregon.gov/oha/PH/PREVENTIONWELLNESS/Pages/Psilocybin-License-Facilitator.aspx https://www.oregon.gov/oha/PH/PREVENTIONWELLNESS/Pages/Psilo...
haswell 3y ago
I’m a year into a sabbatical after spending almost 20 years in tech. I’m currently seriously considering a similar career change, as daunting as it seems at first glance. It’s pretty interesting to find comment threads like this in this particular moment of my life. I think there’s something about being an empathic person in an environment that values systems thinking. As I’ve cultivated that mindset and skillset, it has become more and more obvious that the world needs systems thinkers outside of tech. As a person who benefited greatly from a therapist who helped me apply this kind of thinking to my own life, I’ve learned just how impactful that can be. I don’t know exactly what the next thing looks like yet, but it’s fascinating and informative to see others who have made or are considering the same career change. Thanks for sharing this.

baggsie 3y ago

I take valafaxine / effexor for depression and I remember for the first week or so getting slightly high like as if I'd taken a low dosage of E which was my drug of choice (I had a highly enjoyable albeit mistaken early 20s). I often wonder if there a correlation between my predilection for MDMA and my success with venlafaxine (which saved my life). On a political note it is perverse how alcohol which often renders people violent and risk taking is celebrated, whilst a substance that causes one to dance, hug and spends hours discussing and friendly debating Marxist political theory is distained.

dpflan 3y ago
Alcohol has an extremely long history in humanity; synthesized chemicals less so (comparatively speaking). The alcohol industry is ingrained and well established and clearly wants to keep its influence and profits. Prohibition in the US in the early 20th century was a bust. The sad thing is the familiarity with alcohol and its established position as legal vice give it sway and acceptance, when in reality, it is a disastrous and destructive chemical for which there are many safer non-depressive substitutes.
gwd 3y ago
> Alcohol I think the real issue [EDIT with trying to restrict alcohol] is that alcohol is so easy to produce. I've got some "tea wine" brewing ATM that consists of tea, sugar, and bread yeast. You could literally make hard apple cider with just pressed apple juice in a jar with a lid loose enough to let the CO2 escape; the apples will have wild yeast on them already. No idea how to make MDMA, but I presume it's nowhere near that easy.
- OkayPhysicist 3y ago
  It's not that easy, but it's not exactly difficult, either. I've seen more complicated baking recipes. The hard part is not having the DEA kick down your door, shoot your dog, and throw you in a cage.
  - gwd 3y ago

bluetomcat 3y ago

As an outsider, that American obsession with prescripted medication seems maddening. Many of these conditions are caused by underlying societal factors and are nowhere near as widespread outside the US. The American solution is to throw more pills at the problem, or ostracise the patients not willing to take that route. Even children are offered an ever larger number of pills, and are constantly challenged about their self-identification.

thomastjeffery 3y ago
If a treebranch falls on me, should I limit treatment to wind-based therapy?
nkozyra 3y ago
My views have changed about this a lot over the years. I've gone from feeling that medication is largely unnecessary and that there are alternative routes to feeling that carefully directed medications can and often should be used along with alternative therapies, when applicable. Just throwing medication at a problem and calling it a day will never be useful, but seeing a lot of people find success with a mix of medications (amphetamines, ketamine, mushrooms, etc.) with therapy has been kind of eye opening. A lot of this stems from blanket stigmatization of some drugs versus others. Fixing society is a much larger (and ultimately fluid, unsolvable) problem so I feel like whatever people can do to find contentment should be on the table.
- chiefalchemist 3y ago
  > Fixing society is a much larger (and ultimately fluid, unsolvable) problem so I feel like whatever people can do to find contentme But why is it unsolvable? As the parent comment noted, these issues aren't as prevalent in other cultures. So why here? Why is these so much pain that needs to be medicated? I'm not anti-meds. I think the re-introduction of MDMA and other formerly alternative meds is a good thing as they are more effective. And there will always going to be some people who need such assistance. However, we can still ask why? Why are so many suffering so much that they need meds?

hospitalJail 3y ago

I've been hearing about this for years. I've come to the reality that the future is using science instead of Physicians and buying medicine from other countries who don't have cartels in control of the medical industry.

rootusrootus 3y ago
You may be right, though I expect the 'science' part will be entirely optional, based on our recent experience. In fact, I expect it to be a hinderance and deliberately ignored.

6_6_6 3y ago

climbing it is hard so there are shortcuts. mountain remains mountain regardless

52-6F-62 3y ago
Not shortcuts. Anyone who's taken any psychedelic will tell you that. They're maps of the mountain passes, to use your analogy. (Or maybe maps to the maps)
- sleight42 3y ago
  Ketamine therapy recipient. Accurate.

Simulacra 3y ago

My husband did ketamine therapy last year and I think it saved his life. He had suffered from depression and PTSD since his time in the military, and no amount of medications and therapies could breakthrough. Ketemine saved him and we're 11 months out and he's still doing amazing.

sleight42 3y ago
Stellate Ganglion Block is amazing for PTSD. I've had IV ketamine. I experienced perhaps a 20-30% improvement. After bilateral SGB: order of magnitude improvement. Getting triggered, I use to take hours or days to recover. Now, it can be minutes to hours. I'm not kidding. My life is immeasurably improved. Cannot recommend the Stellate Institute in Annapolis, MD enough. For PTSD, please, if you can, seek out ultrasound guided SGB.

say_it_as_it_is 3y ago

The social and financial cost of poor mental health of veterans is worth exploring all viable treatment pathways, including those involving MDMA and psilocybin. The remaining issue that needs to be addressed is the change of mindset of an entire industry of mental health professionals who will reach for psychoactive treatment as a last resort, after patients have exhausted all other options offered by pharmaceutical companies.

bulbosaur123 3y ago

When heroin therapy

55555 3y ago
Do you not live on the west coast? There's literally free heroin clinics all over.

55555 3y ago

Sweet I can't wait until I can get it prescribed online by answering a questionnaire for $25 and have some shady doctor in Florida ship me a gram of molly in the mail. Sorry autocorrect I mean I can't wait for more startup innovation in the telehealth space.

dpflan 3y ago
Sure, it will happen, but maybe it can be better regulated. But maybe it goes well with those ivermectin doses you also got prescribed over Zoom...
- fallingknife 3y ago
  How about no. I shouldn't have to ask permission from bureaucrats and pay doctors if I think a medication can help me. I've taken adderall for 15 years now, and I still have to pay a doctor $200 (he doesn't take insurance) every 3 months for my prescription. That's about $12,000 I've paid him now, and he doesn't do a damn thing.
  - dpflan 3y ago
    It's a money making scheme for sure, with gatekeepers and entrenched agents, not all medical providers are ethical...
bnjms 3y ago
Laws can be fixed to address this. ADHD laws are being changed to address the pop up online mills from during covid.
- naasking 3y ago
  > Laws can be fixed to address this. ADHD laws are being changed to address the pop up online mills from during covid Right, and harming all sorts of people in the process: https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/the-government-is-making-telemedicine https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/the-government-is-maki... Seriously, why does anyone seriously think "this needs fixing"?

photochemsyn 3y ago

I'd imagine pharmaceutical interests in the USA in the mental illness treatment & maintenance field are depressed by this news - it's going to crush their profit model if successful: > "And it’s unclear whether approving MDMA on the basis of MAPS’s data would ease the way for other companies hoping to study and develop the drug, or whether anyone would even want to. MDMA has been around since 1912 and cannot be patented, creating little financial incentive." Not only that, but if people can improve their condition with three treatments to the point that they no longer need their daily dose of anti-depressant or ADHD medication (or alcohol / opiates / etc. for the self-medicating cohort) then overall drug consumption will drop steeply. This is probably good for social progress but poor for profit margins and ROI in the drug sector. The pharmaceutical industry makes a lot more money by selling maintenance programs in than it does by selling cures. For example: > "“Is curing patients a sustainable business model?” Goldman Sachs analysts ask?" https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2018/04/curing-disease-not-a-sustainable-business-model-goldman-sachs-analysts-say/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2018/04/curing-disease-n...

hammyhavoc 3y ago
I don't think it's going to replace ADHD medication whatsoever. How would that even work?
- Kirth 3y ago
  By fixing the underlying conditions that lead to the behaviour classified as ADHD rather than depending on stimulants as a(n admittedly very effective) crutch to power through them.
  - soylentcola 3y ago
    From what I understand, ADHD is typically thought to be the result of an inefficient (outside of an accepted typical range) reward/reinforcement system in the brain - whether due to not producing enough of the relevant neurotransmitters, or not being "sensitive" enough to them (yes, this is oversimplified). How would MDMA (or any drug) alter this? Stimulants used to treat ADHD typically work by either getting you to produce more of those neurotransmitters or getting them to stick around for longer by inhibiting reuptake. I'm not sure of any drug or treatment that could permanently change these things in the brain.

davidw 3y ago

Oregon recently legalized "shrooms" in therapeutical settings and is gearing up for that to start: https://www.bendbulletin.com/localstate/oregons-first-licensed-psilocybin-facilitators-want-to-change-the-world/article_af4f9740-de33-11ed-ac25-8718727d0353.html https://www.bendbulletin.com/localstate/oregons-first-licens...

goolz 3y ago
I find this to be a great start and have had some very productive results with medicinal shrooms that I got in D.C. I would say that the experiences bordered on the profound and definitely helped me move past some recent near-death trauma in my life. While I am not as much of a fan of MDMA I could see a similar situation where, if done responsibly, it could yield wonderful results. Best of luck to all the researchers out there trying to make this possible. RIP Sasha and Ann.
- sleight42 3y ago
  Live near DC. Color me curious. The "gifting" scheme of DC seems sketchy AF to me: an awkward and awful compromise to sidestep useful regulation that would create more safety, reliability, and transparency. Am I wrong?
  - goolz 3y ago
    To be honest, it has always been quite easy. Last time I simply went in, plus I am out of state. It has become MUCH more above board recently.

abhaynayar 3y ago

I do feel that something like this could help me. I've spent quite a bit of time solving some of my problems around anxiety and fear, but progress is slow, if at all. And sometimes I feel like I just need a "click" in my mind to change perspective. I know what my problem is, when I'm looking at myself as an observer, but it is just so hard to get out of it. I have been making steady progress by reading up and working on my self "naturally", but it sure would help if something external could make things easier. Unfortunately I don't know if these drug therapies will ever come to India.

chriscappuccio 3y ago

"an era of psychedelic medicine" these platitudes are deceiving sure, some people will get an advantage from these treatments never the less, this is no revolution. in US during the early 80s we had MDMA being made in huge quantities and being consumed in clubs, in addition to therapists using it in guided sessions. for 40 years since, the likes of rick doblin and his associates have been trying to push for this treatment. the reason the government is now seriously considering this is because of the needs of combat veterans. it works for PTSD where nothing else in the pharmacopeia does. there are very strong psychedelics like 5-meo-dmt and ibogaine and to some degree ayahuasca and mushrooms that work perhaps even better. that's basically it for treating serious mental problems in post-combat vets. for many people in those extreme mental health crisis situations, they are coming to private clinics outside of the USA to receive these treatments, the government needs to fix this situation because it's ridiculous. despite all this, the use case for MDMA and other psychedelics in the general population is less well understood. certainly, we should explore it, and perhaps it will help to improve our relationships with these drugs in general to have a positive, healthy way to use them that steers them us the right direction. at least, a framework that we can reference. i just don't know that all of this is going to be "an era" or a revolution or whatever people have in their minds. mental health in this country is at al all time low as far as i can tell. if we can even make a dent, that's great. if we start to improve some previously unfixable situations for people, great. we'll need our best abilities to get through what's coming next. as an aside, rick doblin took almost 40 years to do what peter thiel's company did in 4.

tootie 3y ago
Something interesting I learned in my own personal medical journal is that the most popular treatment for cataplexy is sodium oxybate which is very closely related to GHB (aka Rohypnol). It's well-studied, proven effective and widely prescribed. There's even fights over patents. My point being, that this runs counter to any narrative the illicit street drugs are anathema to traditional research. Doctors and biologists do treat all chemicals as chemicals and will develop treatments based on evidence. The evidence behind MDMA (and hallucinogens and ketamine) is compelling, but historically hasn't been worth elevating above other treatments. In the case of cataplexy, there isn't really any other viable treatment so oxybate immediately became the first choice.

dokem 3y ago

Or just do drugs by yourself or with friends and not around some stranger who guides you to state approved answers. Also do mushrooms, not this shit. Only reason they're pushing this brain-melting stuff is because they can make a buck. 'actually drugs are good now. Just give us your credit card and insurance info and step right this way'. Fuck off. Do drugs in the woods and sort your shit out like we've been doing for thousands of years. Get out of here nerd.

achenet 3y ago
I get what you're saying, and I've basically only done the "cowboy-style drop acid/MDMA/shrooms in random settings" and sorted my shit out that way (well, some of it, at least) myself, and honestly, it's worked out pretty well for me. But I've also met a few folks that have been deeply traumatized by bad trips - one particularly painful example is someone who saw a friend he loved fall to her death whilst tripping on shrooms. Responsible tripping is important. There's a reason trip-sitters, good setting, etc are generally recommended. and the last bit 'get out of here nerd' was really uncalled for. You make yourself look... ungentlemanly at best. I'd go as far as saying you just made yourself seem like an absolute twat, but I'm sure you're a kind person deep down and maybe you're just upset by 'the man' co-opting your edgy lifestyle choices like a hipster upset by his/her favorite band becoming popular and this is how you express that :3 If this helps people heal their trauma and have nicer lives, I think we should support, not everyone can be cool kids with easy access to drugs like us ;)
- dokem 3y ago
  That's the thing. Tripping and self reflecting isn't edgy. It's been made to seem edgy. Someone died while doing drugs? Guess we should only sell beer at the psych office too so they can save us. And cut your self righteous bullshit about internet comments being uncalled for. Trauma and overcoming, i.e, the human experience, isn't new. These mega institutions sticking their whole fist up our ass is. I'm not against the idea that there needs to be 'the man'. But people are sold the idea that it's only ok or 'safe' to trip in a doctors office I think we need to get a grip. Might as well fuck in front of them too.

AlwaysRock 3y ago

Does anyone have a timeline of what the history of this has been? Because I'm fairly positive that I was going to sign up for MDMA therapy for chronic pain in Chicago ~5 years ago because a clinic nearby offered it. But when I got around to it insurance regulations had changed and was no longer going to cover part of it so it was going to be incredibly expensive. It's possible that was ketamine therapy but I thought it was mdma.

cactusplant7374 3y ago
Ketamine is sometimes used for chronic pain. It’s very expensive if the IV route is used.
- AlwaysRock 3y ago
  Got it. It must have been Ketamine then.
chimeracoder 3y ago
> Because I'm fairly positive that I was going to sign up for MDMA therapy for chronic pain in Chicago ~5 years ago because a clinic nearby offered it. Very highly doubtful. MDMA is an amphetamine, and use of amphetamines for pain management is pretty rare. And even among amphetamines, MDMA is pretty undesireable for that purpose, due to its rapid development of tolerance compared to other amphetamines and risks of lasting negative side effects with repeated use in short durations - which rules out nearly all use cases for physical pain management. > It's possible that was ketamine therapy Ketamine is used to treat both acute and chronic pain, so this is much more plausible.

robg 3y ago

Keep in mind that approvals don’t need to be prescription based. Consider the value of quality assurance and drug labeling. Tylenol can readily kill and the importance of knowing what’s in something. Therapists don’t have the authority to prescribe but could still support a session.

jackbeck 3y ago

Rick Doblin recently went on a Joe Rogan podcast where he went more in depth about his experience with this.

tootie 3y ago
Was he on in between Ivermectin and DMT enthusiasts? Not that MDMA treatments are definitely bunk, but Doblin seems like he's promoting himself as much as he's interested in helping people.

vonnik 3y ago

Contrary data point to encourage caution with MDMA: MDMA can reset your dopamine baseline much lower. That is, after you come down, you may feel depressed, and it may be hard to climb out of that depression for a while. Use caution please.

caseyohara 3y ago
I think you mean serotonin. MDMA causes greater release of serotonin and norepinephrine than of dopamine, and dopamine resets to baseline much faster than serotonin. > MDMA-exposed primates showed reduced numbers of serotonergic neurons 7 years later, indicating that some of MDMA’s effect on the brain can be long lasting. > Low serotonin is associated with poor memory and depressed mood, thus these findings are consistent with studies in humans that have shown that some people who use MDMA regularly experience confusion, depression, anxiety, paranoia, and impairment of memory and attention processes. In addition, studies have found that the extent of MDMA use in humans correlates with a decrease in serotonin metabolites and other markers of serotonin function and the degree of memory impairment. Great resource with lots of citations: https://nida.nih.gov/publications/research-reports/mdma-ecstasy-abuse/what-are-mdmas-effects-on-brain https://nida.nih.gov/publications/research-reports/mdma-ecst...
- projectazorian 3y ago
  While doing MDMA in excess is a bad idea, it's worth noting that these studies have a lot of potential confounders. One example is that PTSD also causes "confusion, depression, anxiety, paranoia, and impairment of memory and attention processes." And it's likely that some people with PTSD are self-medicating with MDMA.
  - chimeracoder 3y ago
    > While doing MDMA in excess is a bad idea, it's worth noting that these studies have a lot of potential confounders. > > One example is that PTSD also causes "confusion, depression, anxiety, paranoia, and impairment of memory and attention processes." And it's likely that some people with PTSD are self-medicating with MDMA. The longer-term effects of MDMA are actually fairly well-established, in part because the mechanism of action is known and the relevant effects can be directly measured. It's not just a matter of symptomatic evaluation.

shp0ngle 3y ago

dude weed lmao

BSOhealth 3y ago

I see all the GPT stuff and whatnot, and see that and AI/ML entering so many domains/markets. But psychedelics and the human experience are not something we can automate and I wonder if AI will allow us to deploy more people to help and guide others through life, experiences, and relationships (all IRL).

sleight42 3y ago

Great. Psilocybin please. That seems to offer the best lasting benefit per studies.

462436347 3y ago

Almost 350 comments, none of which mention how dangerous MDMA is, especially to the kidneys, the heart, and the serotonergic neurons of the brain?

buildbot 3y ago
Well, I have no idea personally about MDMA, but many, many drugs are very dangerous to those organs and neurons. For example, any anti-fungal is pretty toxic to you too. Or Chemo. Acetaminophen (Tylenol) is not easy on your liver. Everything in medicine has a risk factor that must be weighed against the benefits.
- 462436347 3y ago
  Comparing it to chemotherapy doesn't really undermine my point, does it? And the ultimate goal of the proponents is not just to get these drugs made available via prescription, but to make them as legal as marijuana.
graypegg 3y ago
The dose makes the poison, as with most medication I would imagine.
tbalsam 3y ago
Please read the original Phase III and earlier studies where they thoroughly address these questions under the treatment modalities being tested. The process for drug approval is extremely rigorous for a reason, and does have some downsides as a result. Let's not negate that work please by ignoring all of the hard work that's already been done to show exceptionally safe viability within the context it's being used in. As noted above/below in different comments, the dose/dosing period/etc always makes a difference in whether a drug is harmful or helpful. In this case, the benefits strongly outweigh the downsides within this particular narrow kind of usecase, and of course hopefully we'll be able to get an even better handle on that in a broader set of examples in the ongoing Phase IV studies. Plus, it's not like MDMA is some new chemical or anything like that. It's pretty darn well characterized under a variety of treatment/usage conditions at this point.

jmpman 3y ago

This should be a legal therapy when under supervision of a psychologist. I’d like it on my death bed.