5 ms·

Preserving Bach's Manuscripts

48 points by tintinnabula 4y ago

tgv 4y ago
The phrase "a poultice of sieved gelatine mousse" is one I would have expected on the menu of El Bulli rather than in an article on document preservation. I can't imagine how that works, but there clearly is a very technical side to preservation.
motohagiography 4y ago
One question I would have about the manuscripts would be from an image analysis that showed how many notes J.S. Bach wrote at a time before pausing, where the pressure and indentation from the beginning of a thought to the end of one would be different. Were they written in sliuces and flourishes, or was each note calculated methodically? It's probable he was copying from a more rough temporary copy, meaning there would have been a rhythm to writing it, and one which might come out in microscopic differences in the indentations of each line on the page. For each piece, I think most musicians who have played those pieces would only need a couple of lines to interpret his accenting. Is there such a thing as a high frequency radio refractometry that might indicate undulations over the page the way we do it with radar imaging of macro scale features?
- moritzwarhier 4y ago
  Very interesting thought, but, as flat as this response might sound: half of the joy of Bach's keyboard musicnis the fact that articulation, tempo etc are NOT part of the notated musical work. Sure there are conventions, best guesses, and musical necessities. But as far as I can understand, Bach considered most of this as the art of performing, cultural education and creativity. Mind that there was no "touch sensitivity" in harpsichords (only clavichords, a very quiet instrument not suitable for large public performance). So without the modern piano, players used timing and ornaments to express themselves. There also is a lot of keyboardb music by Bach in the form of dances (AABB or ABAB mostly), where the player was expected to improvise at least in the repeated parts. Even the articulation of melodies and themes central to pieces are mostly left to the player (most prominently staccato vs legato vs portato), same with the tempo of the piece. Of course there were conventions. And there also some extremely rare exceptions, where e.g. legato is notated in original (?) scripts. But, TL;DR: I find your idea very interesting, OTOH I think that Bach and people at his time mostly didn't want to write down such "documented expressions". I might be wrong, I am not a historian, but this is my takeaway from my love affair with Bachs music. It's not interesting to search for his "hidden train of thought". Plenty of mystification and speculation already exists. It is more interesting to find the different ways in which his music can be sensibly interpreted.
  - moritzwarhier 4y ago
    To add to this: Bach loved to "remix" his own musical ideas and to reuse previous themes, melodies or whole pieces. As an innocent example, compare e.g. the Prelude in E minor in WTK 1 to its original version, which is part of his "book for Wilhem Friedemann Bach", as an educative piece for his son.
moritzwarhier 4y ago
Great to see Bach on HN, and WTK II as well - there is so much to say about Bach, especially the conventions and freedom of expression in his keyboard works. I am probably not the right one to articulate These thoughts. I can only say, the joy of Bach is hard to put into words. It is the emotional and at the same time almost mechanically feeling musical nature of his works, how he makes two or more voices "sing" together - I can't imagine my adult life without discovering Bach's keyboard music when I was in an especially hard time. The unity of learning and listening also can't be overstated. Bach made me really appreciate my tiny glimpse into the Western musical tradition and also opened other worlds for me. And his works are unbelievably enjoyable to play, even when imperfect. Listening to or playing Bach can sometimes feel like rediscovering life itself, without intending to sound dramatic, I mean it exactly like that. It seems like a miracle that another human could feel and even create the perfect interplay of rhythm, harmony, melody and patterns in Bachs work. And at the same time it feels like his work was driven by an unstoppable, deterministic, positive energy. I know I'm rambling, but I really love Bach. Back to where I started: I might be unable to express my admiration and thankfulness for his work in a readable or useful way. But I'd almost go so far as to say that Bach instilled some kind of hope, faith and appreciation of human life itself in me, at a time when I was ready to just give up on my life.
tomcam 4y ago
Big fan of pop music, mostly secular, from 1300s-1850s. Studying Bach manuscripts directly (or repros, as I had to settle for) indicated to me that publishers did a lot of guesswork over the years, some of it obviously wrong, but a bunch more of it just their best guess. I decided I was just ignorant about the number of errors I saw. I managed to score a lunch with Yo-Yo Ma at a charity event a few years ago & was proven satisfyingly right. He had to make a ton judgment calls but found that over the years many errors have been introduced by publishers. Of course he was able to study the originals. Also the British Museum will give almost anyone with a passport surprisingly liberal access to their collections. Traveled there from the US with my teenage kid only to find out the "almost" part, which is that you must be 18 or older. Understandable, but... sigh.
- kashunstva 4y ago
  > many errors have been introduced by publishers Indeed. Much of Beethoven’s correspondence with his publishers has been preserved. Constant kvetching about errors. Access to the manuscript is so important. My daughter is a violinist. One of her editions of the 6 Sonatas and Partitas edited by Galamian contains a reproduction of the manuscript. So while he makes editorial choices, there’s immediate access to the original. In some cases I prefer this to the vaunted Urtext editions. Even the manuscripts contain errors though. I’m thinking of Mozart, where little harmonic errors and accidental accidentals (!) crop up with some frequency. “Pop music of the 1300s - 1850’s” - love the terminology!
- tgv 4y ago
  Nice, but IMO you can't call Bach 1700s pop music. It simply never was popular.
  - stereo 4y ago
    Bach quotes pop music all the time, for example in the Quodlibet of the Goldberg variations: https://www.bach-cantatas.com/Articles/BWV988-Quodlibet[Braatz].htm https://www.bach-cantatas.com/Articles/BWV988-Quodlibet[Braa... It's probably easiest to listen to the Bergamasca melody which was used endlessly in pop songs at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34Lohr99FQA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34Lohr99FQA , one German version Bach's contemporaries would have been familiar with at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHypa4P7jT8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHypa4P7jT8 , and compare with the Quodlibet at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvZfe35c410 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvZfe35c410

48 points by tintinnabula 4y ago

tgv 4y ago

The phrase "a poultice of sieved gelatine mousse" is one I would have expected on the menu of El Bulli rather than in an article on document preservation. I can't imagine how that works, but there clearly is a very technical side to preservation.

motohagiography 4y ago

One question I would have about the manuscripts would be from an image analysis that showed how many notes J.S. Bach wrote at a time before pausing, where the pressure and indentation from the beginning of a thought to the end of one would be different. Were they written in sliuces and flourishes, or was each note calculated methodically? It's probable he was copying from a more rough temporary copy, meaning there would have been a rhythm to writing it, and one which might come out in microscopic differences in the indentations of each line on the page. For each piece, I think most musicians who have played those pieces would only need a couple of lines to interpret his accenting. Is there such a thing as a high frequency radio refractometry that might indicate undulations over the page the way we do it with radar imaging of macro scale features?

moritzwarhier 4y ago
Very interesting thought, but, as flat as this response might sound: half of the joy of Bach's keyboard musicnis the fact that articulation, tempo etc are NOT part of the notated musical work. Sure there are conventions, best guesses, and musical necessities. But as far as I can understand, Bach considered most of this as the art of performing, cultural education and creativity. Mind that there was no "touch sensitivity" in harpsichords (only clavichords, a very quiet instrument not suitable for large public performance). So without the modern piano, players used timing and ornaments to express themselves. There also is a lot of keyboardb music by Bach in the form of dances (AABB or ABAB mostly), where the player was expected to improvise at least in the repeated parts. Even the articulation of melodies and themes central to pieces are mostly left to the player (most prominently staccato vs legato vs portato), same with the tempo of the piece. Of course there were conventions. And there also some extremely rare exceptions, where e.g. legato is notated in original (?) scripts. But, TL;DR: I find your idea very interesting, OTOH I think that Bach and people at his time mostly didn't want to write down such "documented expressions". I might be wrong, I am not a historian, but this is my takeaway from my love affair with Bachs music. It's not interesting to search for his "hidden train of thought". Plenty of mystification and speculation already exists. It is more interesting to find the different ways in which his music can be sensibly interpreted.
- moritzwarhier 4y ago
  To add to this: Bach loved to "remix" his own musical ideas and to reuse previous themes, melodies or whole pieces. As an innocent example, compare e.g. the Prelude in E minor in WTK 1 to its original version, which is part of his "book for Wilhem Friedemann Bach", as an educative piece for his son.

moritzwarhier 4y ago

Great to see Bach on HN, and WTK II as well - there is so much to say about Bach, especially the conventions and freedom of expression in his keyboard works. I am probably not the right one to articulate These thoughts. I can only say, the joy of Bach is hard to put into words. It is the emotional and at the same time almost mechanically feeling musical nature of his works, how he makes two or more voices "sing" together - I can't imagine my adult life without discovering Bach's keyboard music when I was in an especially hard time. The unity of learning and listening also can't be overstated. Bach made me really appreciate my tiny glimpse into the Western musical tradition and also opened other worlds for me. And his works are unbelievably enjoyable to play, even when imperfect. Listening to or playing Bach can sometimes feel like rediscovering life itself, without intending to sound dramatic, I mean it exactly like that. It seems like a miracle that another human could feel and even create the perfect interplay of rhythm, harmony, melody and patterns in Bachs work. And at the same time it feels like his work was driven by an unstoppable, deterministic, positive energy. I know I'm rambling, but I really love Bach. Back to where I started: I might be unable to express my admiration and thankfulness for his work in a readable or useful way. But I'd almost go so far as to say that Bach instilled some kind of hope, faith and appreciation of human life itself in me, at a time when I was ready to just give up on my life.

tomcam 4y ago

Big fan of pop music, mostly secular, from 1300s-1850s. Studying Bach manuscripts directly (or repros, as I had to settle for) indicated to me that publishers did a lot of guesswork over the years, some of it obviously wrong, but a bunch more of it just their best guess. I decided I was just ignorant about the number of errors I saw. I managed to score a lunch with Yo-Yo Ma at a charity event a few years ago & was proven satisfyingly right. He had to make a ton judgment calls but found that over the years many errors have been introduced by publishers. Of course he was able to study the originals. Also the British Museum will give almost anyone with a passport surprisingly liberal access to their collections. Traveled there from the US with my teenage kid only to find out the "almost" part, which is that you must be 18 or older. Understandable, but... sigh.

kashunstva 4y ago
> many errors have been introduced by publishers Indeed. Much of Beethoven’s correspondence with his publishers has been preserved. Constant kvetching about errors. Access to the manuscript is so important. My daughter is a violinist. One of her editions of the 6 Sonatas and Partitas edited by Galamian contains a reproduction of the manuscript. So while he makes editorial choices, there’s immediate access to the original. In some cases I prefer this to the vaunted Urtext editions. Even the manuscripts contain errors though. I’m thinking of Mozart, where little harmonic errors and accidental accidentals (!) crop up with some frequency. “Pop music of the 1300s - 1850’s” - love the terminology!
tgv 4y ago
Nice, but IMO you can't call Bach 1700s pop music. It simply never was popular.
- stereo 4y ago
  Bach quotes pop music all the time, for example in the Quodlibet of the Goldberg variations: https://www.bach-cantatas.com/Articles/BWV988-Quodlibet[Braatz].htm https://www.bach-cantatas.com/Articles/BWV988-Quodlibet[Braa... It's probably easiest to listen to the Bergamasca melody which was used endlessly in pop songs at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34Lohr99FQA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34Lohr99FQA , one German version Bach's contemporaries would have been familiar with at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHypa4P7jT8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHypa4P7jT8 , and compare with the Quodlibet at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvZfe35c410 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvZfe35c410