7 ms·

Problem is, even if we agreed in principle to a mandatory retirement age, the party not in power would not want hand over those vacancies to the sitting preside

Problem is, even if we agreed in principle to a mandatory retirement age, the party not in power would not want hand over those vacancies to the sitting president. The article points out that over a tenth of Federal judges are over 80. If presumably they're half D, half R, and they would all be forced to retire, then the current administration would get a free pass to replace a large cohort of politically mixed old judges with a homogeneous slate of young D judges. And it would be a one-shot imbalance, because in the future, judges would age out gradually instead of 10% all at once. So it's unlikely R's would agree to it, nor would D's agree when R's are the ones in power. The only way I could see it being politically palatable is if current judges over 80 are allowed to remain, but any judges turning 80 as of a certain future date are made to retire. So, for instance, if the law went into effect today it could declare that any judge born in the year 1950 or later and turning 80 as of Jan 1, 2030 or later would have to retire.

Eddy_Viscosity2 3y ago
Aren't judges supposed to apply the rule of law regardless of political affiliation? Isn't the law meant to be blind to such things? The fact that it does in fact matter (in some cases a lot!) in practice is a bit a bigger problem than the judges' age.
- darkwizard42 3y ago
  I think this is more of a simplification than a true political affiliation. Judges have conservative and liberal leaning tendencies in their interpretation of the law -- they are supposed to provide an interpretation of the law and naturally that will land on one end of the political spectrum. Personal bias creeps into many rulings and is especially common at the lowest level courts (where checks are limited and visibility is low). Conservative judges can greatly limit progress on a number of hot button issues that matter to Republicans and similarly, liberal judges can push the interpretation of laws which might not be desired by the other side. Even at the Supreme Court level you can see the conflict play out.
nerdchum 3y ago
Haha so a......grandfather.... clause?
- sidewndr46 3y ago
  They might have to add a great grandfather clause
woleium 3y ago
just have them pick their own replacement
- koolba 3y ago
  Unelected people picking lifetime appointments is a recipe for disaster.
jones6ofMont 3y ago
[dead]
zoklet-enjoyer 3y ago
Judges should not be partisan
- perfecthjrjth 3y ago
  Judges are always 'partisan', meaning that they are influenced by some or other ideology, policy choices, theories. As long as a certain segment of population finds their judgments reasonable, that's fine. What is reasonable to one set of people, may not be reasonable to another set of people. The issue is not about truth or falsity, but one of reasonableness.
- harimau777 3y ago
  Sure, but they are. I don't think we can do better than account for the fact that they are partisan.
stubish 3y ago
Rather than a retirement age, you could just appoint a judge for a fixed tenure. How long that is could be based on the current age of the appointee, or could be less to best avoid clusters of appointments. Tenure of course needs to be long, probably with a minimum in decades to cover multiple election cycles.
- akvadrako 3y ago
  Indeed. This is also more future-proof. If people live longer and retire at say 120, do we really want judges to sit there for 80 years without a chance to re-evaluate them?
throwaway426079 3y ago
While this could be solved by judges choosing to retire early while under a 'friendly' administration, recent experience tells us this is not going to happen every time.
harimau777 3y ago
Perhaps a better way to handle things would be to ensure that the number of judges is balanced. For example, the law could require the ratios of federal judges to match the ratio of the popular vote in the most recent election. Or new administrations could be allowed to appoint new judges. Otherwise we still have the problems of judicial rulings primarily depending on what administration happens to be in power when it is time to replace a judge.
- eesmith 3y ago
  Seems easily gamed and hard to implement. One's official political affiliation is easily changed. What do you do about independents? What about third parties? Is there a minimum threshold for party size? That is, if party X has 10,000 members, must an X judge be appointed? What about 1,000 members? 10 members?
  - harimau777 3y ago
    Certainly it's not a perfect system, but I think a lot of these questions could be addressed. Party affiliation could be determined by the percentage of the popular vote a party receives in the presidential election (or there could be a separate question on the ballot for what party you want to appoint judges on your behalf). So party affiliation or independent status wouldn't matter, just who an individual votes for. That wouldn't be perfect, for example I generally vote for one of the major parties even though they don't actually represent my views that well; however, it would still provide at least some balance of power that is currently lacking. I'd envision third parties being handled in the same way that countries with proportionate representation do. As I understand it, a party gets a proportion of the seats equal to it's votes and small parties can band together so that collectively they have enough votes to get a seat.
    - eesmith 3y ago
      > So party affiliation or independent status wouldn't matter, just who an individual votes for. I take it you don't think an independent will ever win the presidential election. You're almost certainly right, but that would be a flaw with this system. If extended to state judges and the governorship, it would have been a problem for Alaska in 2014–2018, when Bill Walker was governor. > That wouldn't be perfect Here's a big flaw - it requires judges to have a party affiliation. https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/registered-voters-by-party https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/registered-... says there are about 38.8 registered Republicans and 49 million registered Democrats and over 210 million registered voters. If those numbers are right, most of the voting population is not registered with a party, even though most of the population votes for one of two parties. But in a system which requires judicial party membership to reflect voting preference, you end up forcing judges to join a party, just to have a job. Right now a lot of judges are "non-partisan". Of the recent state Supreme Court elections, "61 are held by nonpartisan justices", "14 are held by Republican justices, "five are held by Democratic justices" - https://ballotpedia.org/State_supreme_court_elections,_2024 https://ballotpedia.org/State_supreme_court_elections,_2024 (Though I think that means the race was not partisan, not necessarily the judge wasn't a party member?) Still, you can see AZ Supreme Court - https://ballotpedia.org/Ann_Timmer https://ballotpedia.org/Ann_Timmer who is listed as nonpartisan and with "Partisan Confidence Score: Indeterminate". This leads to problem #2: since there appear to be a lot of judges with no registered party membership - far more than the percentage of non-D/non-R votes - how do you determine if the current judicial distribution is skewed? Will you only select party-affiliated judges until the numbers balance the election results?
eesmith 3y ago
Another possibility is that all new judges have limited appointment. It would be several presidential terms before this had any effect, and be staggered over multiple presidents.
KennyBlanken 3y ago
> then the current administration would get a free pass to replace a large cohort of politically mixed old judges with a homogeneous slate of young D judges. And it would be a one-shot imbalance, because in the future, judges would age out gradually instead of 10% all at once. Allow me to point out how absurd this objection is in the context of the last decade and a half or so. Party A publicly declares that as a matter of policy, they will proudly and purposefully go to any length to prevent nominations by the presidency, held by Party B, for eight years. Party A secures the presidency (with the lowest popular vote count in history) and proceeds to stuff the federal judiciary with nearly two hundred and fifty appointments, many of whom are widely criticized by numerous groups including the American Bar Association as being wildly unqualified and in the few short years since have handily confirmed this with comically bad rulings. In a severe backlash by the American public, Party B returns to the white house and secures substantial congressional control It is pointed out that we have a small number of judges who are senile and that they should probably be forcibly retired ...and that is "unfair" because Party B would get the "one shot" opportunity to replace a handful of judges... ...after party A replaced two hundred and fifty in four years? Bish, please.
- zuminator 3y ago
  Just to be clear, I absolutely agree with you. But what's best for the nation is severely circumscribed by what's politically possible. As Lord Acton put it, "Everybody likes to get as much power as circumstances allow, and nobody will vote for a self-denying ordinance."
ars 3y ago
Even better, set the retirement age to 100 in 2023, and every year after that drop the age by 1 until 2043 when it reaches 80. It'll take a little while, but you'll implement your rule without major disruption, as each year 2 years worth of judges retire.
brnt 3y ago
> If presumably they're half D, half R, and they would all be forced to retire, then the current administration would get a free pass to replace a large cohort of politically mixed old judges with a homogeneous slate of young D judges Not bad compensation for the enormous cohort of R judges appointed during the Trump administration.

Eddy_Viscosity2 3y ago

Aren't judges supposed to apply the rule of law regardless of political affiliation? Isn't the law meant to be blind to such things? The fact that it does in fact matter (in some cases a lot!) in practice is a bit a bigger problem than the judges' age.

darkwizard42 3y ago
I think this is more of a simplification than a true political affiliation. Judges have conservative and liberal leaning tendencies in their interpretation of the law -- they are supposed to provide an interpretation of the law and naturally that will land on one end of the political spectrum. Personal bias creeps into many rulings and is especially common at the lowest level courts (where checks are limited and visibility is low). Conservative judges can greatly limit progress on a number of hot button issues that matter to Republicans and similarly, liberal judges can push the interpretation of laws which might not be desired by the other side. Even at the Supreme Court level you can see the conflict play out.

nerdchum 3y ago

Haha so a......grandfather.... clause?

sidewndr46 3y ago
They might have to add a great grandfather clause

woleium 3y ago

just have them pick their own replacement

koolba 3y ago
Unelected people picking lifetime appointments is a recipe for disaster.

jones6ofMont 3y ago

[dead]

zoklet-enjoyer 3y ago

Judges should not be partisan

perfecthjrjth 3y ago
Judges are always 'partisan', meaning that they are influenced by some or other ideology, policy choices, theories. As long as a certain segment of population finds their judgments reasonable, that's fine. What is reasonable to one set of people, may not be reasonable to another set of people. The issue is not about truth or falsity, but one of reasonableness.
harimau777 3y ago
Sure, but they are. I don't think we can do better than account for the fact that they are partisan.

stubish 3y ago

Rather than a retirement age, you could just appoint a judge for a fixed tenure. How long that is could be based on the current age of the appointee, or could be less to best avoid clusters of appointments. Tenure of course needs to be long, probably with a minimum in decades to cover multiple election cycles.

akvadrako 3y ago
Indeed. This is also more future-proof. If people live longer and retire at say 120, do we really want judges to sit there for 80 years without a chance to re-evaluate them?

throwaway426079 3y ago

While this could be solved by judges choosing to retire early while under a 'friendly' administration, recent experience tells us this is not going to happen every time.

harimau777 3y ago

Perhaps a better way to handle things would be to ensure that the number of judges is balanced. For example, the law could require the ratios of federal judges to match the ratio of the popular vote in the most recent election. Or new administrations could be allowed to appoint new judges. Otherwise we still have the problems of judicial rulings primarily depending on what administration happens to be in power when it is time to replace a judge.

eesmith 3y ago
Seems easily gamed and hard to implement. One's official political affiliation is easily changed. What do you do about independents? What about third parties? Is there a minimum threshold for party size? That is, if party X has 10,000 members, must an X judge be appointed? What about 1,000 members? 10 members?
- harimau777 3y ago
  Certainly it's not a perfect system, but I think a lot of these questions could be addressed. Party affiliation could be determined by the percentage of the popular vote a party receives in the presidential election (or there could be a separate question on the ballot for what party you want to appoint judges on your behalf). So party affiliation or independent status wouldn't matter, just who an individual votes for. That wouldn't be perfect, for example I generally vote for one of the major parties even though they don't actually represent my views that well; however, it would still provide at least some balance of power that is currently lacking. I'd envision third parties being handled in the same way that countries with proportionate representation do. As I understand it, a party gets a proportion of the seats equal to it's votes and small parties can band together so that collectively they have enough votes to get a seat.
  - eesmith 3y ago
    > So party affiliation or independent status wouldn't matter, just who an individual votes for. I take it you don't think an independent will ever win the presidential election. You're almost certainly right, but that would be a flaw with this system. If extended to state judges and the governorship, it would have been a problem for Alaska in 2014–2018, when Bill Walker was governor. > That wouldn't be perfect Here's a big flaw - it requires judges to have a party affiliation. https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/registered-voters-by-party https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/registered-... says there are about 38.8 registered Republicans and 49 million registered Democrats and over 210 million registered voters. If those numbers are right, most of the voting population is not registered with a party, even though most of the population votes for one of two parties. But in a system which requires judicial party membership to reflect voting preference, you end up forcing judges to join a party, just to have a job. Right now a lot of judges are "non-partisan". Of the recent state Supreme Court elections, "61 are held by nonpartisan justices", "14 are held by Republican justices, "five are held by Democratic justices" - https://ballotpedia.org/State_supreme_court_elections,_2024 https://ballotpedia.org/State_supreme_court_elections,_2024 (Though I think that means the race was not partisan, not necessarily the judge wasn't a party member?) Still, you can see AZ Supreme Court - https://ballotpedia.org/Ann_Timmer https://ballotpedia.org/Ann_Timmer who is listed as nonpartisan and with "Partisan Confidence Score: Indeterminate". This leads to problem #2: since there appear to be a lot of judges with no registered party membership - far more than the percentage of non-D/non-R votes - how do you determine if the current judicial distribution is skewed? Will you only select party-affiliated judges until the numbers balance the election results?

eesmith 3y ago

Another possibility is that all new judges have limited appointment. It would be several presidential terms before this had any effect, and be staggered over multiple presidents.

KennyBlanken 3y ago

> then the current administration would get a free pass to replace a large cohort of politically mixed old judges with a homogeneous slate of young D judges. And it would be a one-shot imbalance, because in the future, judges would age out gradually instead of 10% all at once. Allow me to point out how absurd this objection is in the context of the last decade and a half or so. Party A publicly declares that as a matter of policy, they will proudly and purposefully go to any length to prevent nominations by the presidency, held by Party B, for eight years. Party A secures the presidency (with the lowest popular vote count in history) and proceeds to stuff the federal judiciary with nearly two hundred and fifty appointments, many of whom are widely criticized by numerous groups including the American Bar Association as being wildly unqualified and in the few short years since have handily confirmed this with comically bad rulings. In a severe backlash by the American public, Party B returns to the white house and secures substantial congressional control It is pointed out that we have a small number of judges who are senile and that they should probably be forcibly retired ...and that is "unfair" because Party B would get the "one shot" opportunity to replace a handful of judges... ...after party A replaced two hundred and fifty in four years? Bish, please.

zuminator 3y ago
Just to be clear, I absolutely agree with you. But what's best for the nation is severely circumscribed by what's politically possible. As Lord Acton put it, "Everybody likes to get as much power as circumstances allow, and nobody will vote for a self-denying ordinance."

ars 3y ago

Even better, set the retirement age to 100 in 2023, and every year after that drop the age by 1 until 2043 when it reaches 80. It'll take a little while, but you'll implement your rule without major disruption, as each year 2 years worth of judges retire.

brnt 3y ago

> If presumably they're half D, half R, and they would all be forced to retire, then the current administration would get a free pass to replace a large cohort of politically mixed old judges with a homogeneous slate of young D judges Not bad compensation for the enormous cohort of R judges appointed during the Trump administration.