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> For example, NJ used to have machines that were proven to have attack vectors. Why use machines at all? In my opinion any action that does not remove the mac

> For example, NJ used to have machines that were proven to have attack vectors. Why use machines at all? In my opinion any action that does not remove the machines altogether is not good enough. Machines are hack-able, humans are much harder to "hack", especially if you have both parties' representatives in the room at all times.

nebula8804 3y ago
The electorate demands same day instant results. You'll have to change the mindset of the electorate for that one. Having both electronic + a statistical analysis of paper ballots or counting ballots slowly after the election as a final verification is the best approach.
- flavius29663 3y ago
  You can have very fast results by getting more poll workers. It's not that big of a deal, as people willing to work the polls scale with the number of voters. Nobody really wants "instant" results, if you get 90% of the count the night of the vote, that will be good enough. I come from Romania, and we only count by hand, and by 10PM you usually know the results with pretty high confidence. Romania only has 10 mil votes, but as I said, it scales very well.
  - nebula8804 3y ago
    >You can have very fast results by getting more poll workers. It's not that big of a deal, as people willing to work the polls scale with the number of voters. Thats a lot of overhead and costs that is not going to fly with voters. > I come from Romania Well that explains it. You do not fully understand the "election night frenzy" that occurs every four years in the US.
    - flavius29663 3y ago
      > Well that explains it. You do not fully understand the "election night frenzy" that occurs every four years in the US. I actually understand it, it's very similar for us. Why would you immediately assume it's different? In the UK it's different, it's incredibly quiet and somber. And I just told you that we finish counting earlier than many if not most US states anyway. Recounts happen but are limited to individual poll stations, because of all the party representatives they have very few chances of changing anything. It's really not that much overhead, the US has 900k people operating the polling stations on the voting day (https://www.eac.gov/sites/default/files/document_library/files/EAVSDeepDive_pollworkers_pollingplaces_nov17.pdf https://www.eac.gov/sites/default/files/document_library/fil...). That means 10 workers need to handle 1600 votes. It's really not that much, you can manually count those in a couple of hours once the polls are closed. Also, you can tap into volunteers from both parties. I really don't understand the US: you have half the country saying that the 2000 elections were decided by malfunctioning counting machines in Florida. Now in 2020 you have the other half distrusting machines for fear of tampering, and you still rely on machines? why? This is the norm in Europe, poll stations count their own votes and they get tallied up centrally. e.g. Germany https://www.deutschland.de/en/topic/politics/election-in-germany-counting-and-checking-the-votes-cast https://www.deutschland.de/en/topic/politics/election-in-ger... or UK https://theconversation.com/explainer-how-britain-counts-its-votes-41265 https://theconversation.com/explainer-how-britain-counts-its...
    - flavius29663 3y ago
      Also, I want to add an observation, as an immigrant in the US, and this applies especially to liberals: whenever they see something they like in Europe, it trumps every other argument. Because it is happening in Europe, *it is* better and debating it further paints you as an uneducated bigot. If it's something that liberals don't agree with, then "yeah, but this is the US", "we can and should do better" etc. e.g. When talking about laws or policies that positively discriminate based on skin color, someone said "this wouldn't even be a discussion in Europe, it would just be accepted". I had to point out that it would actually be illegal/unconstitutional in all places I know about in Europe. Another one: All of Europe, except the UK, has voter ID requirements, some stricter than others. I will add manual vote counting to my list.

nebula8804 3y ago

The electorate demands same day instant results. You'll have to change the mindset of the electorate for that one. Having both electronic + a statistical analysis of paper ballots or counting ballots slowly after the election as a final verification is the best approach.

flavius29663 3y ago
You can have very fast results by getting more poll workers. It's not that big of a deal, as people willing to work the polls scale with the number of voters. Nobody really wants "instant" results, if you get 90% of the count the night of the vote, that will be good enough. I come from Romania, and we only count by hand, and by 10PM you usually know the results with pretty high confidence. Romania only has 10 mil votes, but as I said, it scales very well.
- nebula8804 3y ago
  >You can have very fast results by getting more poll workers. It's not that big of a deal, as people willing to work the polls scale with the number of voters. Thats a lot of overhead and costs that is not going to fly with voters. > I come from Romania Well that explains it. You do not fully understand the "election night frenzy" that occurs every four years in the US.
  - flavius29663 3y ago
    > Well that explains it. You do not fully understand the "election night frenzy" that occurs every four years in the US. I actually understand it, it's very similar for us. Why would you immediately assume it's different? In the UK it's different, it's incredibly quiet and somber. And I just told you that we finish counting earlier than many if not most US states anyway. Recounts happen but are limited to individual poll stations, because of all the party representatives they have very few chances of changing anything. It's really not that much overhead, the US has 900k people operating the polling stations on the voting day (https://www.eac.gov/sites/default/files/document_library/files/EAVSDeepDive_pollworkers_pollingplaces_nov17.pdf https://www.eac.gov/sites/default/files/document_library/fil...). That means 10 workers need to handle 1600 votes. It's really not that much, you can manually count those in a couple of hours once the polls are closed. Also, you can tap into volunteers from both parties. I really don't understand the US: you have half the country saying that the 2000 elections were decided by malfunctioning counting machines in Florida. Now in 2020 you have the other half distrusting machines for fear of tampering, and you still rely on machines? why? This is the norm in Europe, poll stations count their own votes and they get tallied up centrally. e.g. Germany https://www.deutschland.de/en/topic/politics/election-in-germany-counting-and-checking-the-votes-cast https://www.deutschland.de/en/topic/politics/election-in-ger... or UK https://theconversation.com/explainer-how-britain-counts-its-votes-41265 https://theconversation.com/explainer-how-britain-counts-its...
  - flavius29663 3y ago
    Also, I want to add an observation, as an immigrant in the US, and this applies especially to liberals: whenever they see something they like in Europe, it trumps every other argument. Because it is happening in Europe, *it is* better and debating it further paints you as an uneducated bigot. If it's something that liberals don't agree with, then "yeah, but this is the US", "we can and should do better" etc. e.g. When talking about laws or policies that positively discriminate based on skin color, someone said "this wouldn't even be a discussion in Europe, it would just be accepted". I had to point out that it would actually be illegal/unconstitutional in all places I know about in Europe. Another one: All of Europe, except the UK, has voter ID requirements, some stricter than others. I will add manual vote counting to my list.