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> but one of the things I was working on was serial drivers for the 6809 board (i think) Burrell Smith had hacked together for Jef Raskin (he also designed the

> but one of the things I was working on was serial drivers for the 6809 board (i think) Burrell Smith had hacked together for Jef Raskin (he also designed the later 68000 board, though I know Dan Kottke had something to do with it.) I had previously written modem drivers for the Apple II and Jef helped me get the required technical docs from Apple and Hayes. What I saw of the Mac prototype in 1980... For what it's worth, this is a transparent attempt at an informal fallacy called argument from authority. Unfortunately, unless you were an Apple employee at the time and a member of the Macintosh Project team, and no offense intended, but you have no idea what you saw. At the very best it was a prototype, and not the prototype. Again, no offense intended, but YOU don't matter, only what you say matters in so far as you can prove the veracity of the content of your assertions. "I saw it with my own eyes," or "I know what I'm talking about, I am an expert," simply doesn't carry the same weight as, "here is a dated document proving this, and here is another." > Before 1981, the Mac wasn't going to be a mouse driven, WIMP system. Heck, before 1979, when Jobs and Atkisson visited PARC, I'm not sure the Lisa was going to be a WIMP system. The mouse was invented in 1968 by Douglas Engelbart. The Xerox Alto demoed to Apple with Steve Jobs used a mouse. In a later interview about the Xerox Alto demo, of which a clip is in the OP, Steve Jobs states that he knew it was going be the future of computing. There are documents dating from at least as early as Spring of 1980 that concern the development of the Apple Mouse[1] proving that you are mistaken. By December 1979 at the very latest, the Lisa and the Macintosh were always going to be mouse driven. > Saying the Macintosh was a continuation of the Lisa Project is ridiculous. Who said that? Oh, I see, you're now advancing a straw man. Consider that the origin of Macintosh could arguably be the Lisa. Consider that the origin of Macintosh could be the Xerox Alto. Consider that the origin of Macintosh could be the Mother of All Demos. Consider that it could also be Charles Babbage's Analytical Engine. Consider that it could also be the Jacquard Loom, and for that matter it could be the abacus. "Origin" does not mean "when Steve Jobs joined the team." It means "source." [1] https://web.stanford.edu/dept/SUL/sites/mac/mouse0.html https://web.stanford.edu/dept/SUL/sites/mac/mouse0.html

retrocryptid 3y ago
It was a prototype, which is my point. I believe I saw a lot more than you did; are you asserting that the 2 and a half people on the Mac team in 1980 are the only ones who could identify a prototype?
- Maursault 3y ago
  > I believe I saw a lot more than you did; Argument from authority. > are you asserting that the 2 and a half people on the Mac team in 1980 are the only ones who could identify a prototype? No, my assertion is Apple kept a tight lid and had a culture of secrecy even dating back to the development of Macintosh, and if anyone in management caught a sniff that Raskin was showing you his prototype, he would have been summarily fired, and the Mac would never have been. So while it is possible, and I do actually believe you, it also seems unlikely and specious that Raskin, a serious and intelligent man, would risk his livelihood and his brainchild to show off for a developer of modem software. You two must have been pretty tight.
retrocryptid 3y ago
By your reasoning, the Apple I was intended to be a mouse driven system because engelbart had a mouse prototype in 1968. I don't think that's the case. Also, if you talked to Jef, like I did when he was showing off the SwyftCard, he was not ashamed to tell you that the Mac was originally going to be a keyboard based system (like the SwyftCard or the Canon Cat.) Steve Levy recorded these comments in "Insanely Great", the Wikipedia paraphrase is: "Secretly bypassing Job's ego and authority by continually securing permission and funding directly at the executive level, Raskin created and solely supervised the Macintosh project for approximately it's first year... it was Raskin who provided the powerful vision of a computer whose legacy would be low cost, high utility and a groundbreaking friendliness... it was text only, as Raskin disliked the computer mouse or anything that else that could take his hands from the keyboard." While it's tempting to believe the Mac sprung forth from Jobs forehead fully formed in 1984, it's just simply not true. Many people were involved in it's development and it's ultimate form changed radically between '79 and '84, depending on who was leading the project.
- Maursault 3y ago
  > By your reasoning, the Apple I was intended to be a mouse driven system because engelbart had a mouse prototype in 1968. That is not my reasoning, and no one has claimed this, so your argument is a straw man fallacy. > Also, if you talked to Jef, like I did when he was showing off the SwyftCard, he was not ashamed to tell you that the Mac was originally going to be a keyboard based system (like the SwyftCard or the Canon Cat.) Argument from authority.[1] > Steve Levy recorded these comments in "Insanely Great", the Wikipedia paraphrase is: "Secretly bypassing Job's ego and authority by continually securing permission and funding directly at the executive level, Raskin created and solely supervised the Macintosh project for approximately it's first year... it was Raskin who provided the powerful vision of a computer whose legacy would be low cost, high utility and a groundbreaking friendliness... it was text only, as Raskin disliked the computer mouse or anything that else that could take his hands from the keyboard." While that is fascinating, Wikipedia doesn't have a dedicated article for Insanely Great. > While it's tempting to believe the Mac sprung forth from Jobs forehead fully formed in 1984, it's just simply not true. No one has claimed this but you in your above comments: >>>>>> The line is sometime after early 1981, when Jobs took over the Macintosh project from Jef Raskin. > Many people were involved in it's development and it's ultimate form changed radically between '79 and '84, depending on who was leading the project. Finally, you have acknowledged the accuracy of my initial assertion that Mac development began in the late 1970's, unless 1979 is unexpectedly in some other decade. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

retrocryptid 3y ago

It was a prototype, which is my point. I believe I saw a lot more than you did; are you asserting that the 2 and a half people on the Mac team in 1980 are the only ones who could identify a prototype?

Maursault 3y ago
> I believe I saw a lot more than you did; Argument from authority. > are you asserting that the 2 and a half people on the Mac team in 1980 are the only ones who could identify a prototype? No, my assertion is Apple kept a tight lid and had a culture of secrecy even dating back to the development of Macintosh, and if anyone in management caught a sniff that Raskin was showing you his prototype, he would have been summarily fired, and the Mac would never have been. So while it is possible, and I do actually believe you, it also seems unlikely and specious that Raskin, a serious and intelligent man, would risk his livelihood and his brainchild to show off for a developer of modem software. You two must have been pretty tight.

retrocryptid 3y ago

By your reasoning, the Apple I was intended to be a mouse driven system because engelbart had a mouse prototype in 1968. I don't think that's the case. Also, if you talked to Jef, like I did when he was showing off the SwyftCard, he was not ashamed to tell you that the Mac was originally going to be a keyboard based system (like the SwyftCard or the Canon Cat.) Steve Levy recorded these comments in "Insanely Great", the Wikipedia paraphrase is: "Secretly bypassing Job's ego and authority by continually securing permission and funding directly at the executive level, Raskin created and solely supervised the Macintosh project for approximately it's first year... it was Raskin who provided the powerful vision of a computer whose legacy would be low cost, high utility and a groundbreaking friendliness... it was text only, as Raskin disliked the computer mouse or anything that else that could take his hands from the keyboard." While it's tempting to believe the Mac sprung forth from Jobs forehead fully formed in 1984, it's just simply not true. Many people were involved in it's development and it's ultimate form changed radically between '79 and '84, depending on who was leading the project.

Maursault 3y ago
> By your reasoning, the Apple I was intended to be a mouse driven system because engelbart had a mouse prototype in 1968. That is not my reasoning, and no one has claimed this, so your argument is a straw man fallacy. > Also, if you talked to Jef, like I did when he was showing off the SwyftCard, he was not ashamed to tell you that the Mac was originally going to be a keyboard based system (like the SwyftCard or the Canon Cat.) Argument from authority.[1] > Steve Levy recorded these comments in "Insanely Great", the Wikipedia paraphrase is: "Secretly bypassing Job's ego and authority by continually securing permission and funding directly at the executive level, Raskin created and solely supervised the Macintosh project for approximately it's first year... it was Raskin who provided the powerful vision of a computer whose legacy would be low cost, high utility and a groundbreaking friendliness... it was text only, as Raskin disliked the computer mouse or anything that else that could take his hands from the keyboard." While that is fascinating, Wikipedia doesn't have a dedicated article for Insanely Great. > While it's tempting to believe the Mac sprung forth from Jobs forehead fully formed in 1984, it's just simply not true. No one has claimed this but you in your above comments: >>>>>> The line is sometime after early 1981, when Jobs took over the Macintosh project from Jef Raskin. > Many people were involved in it's development and it's ultimate form changed radically between '79 and '84, depending on who was leading the project. Finally, you have acknowledged the accuracy of my initial assertion that Mac development began in the late 1970's, unless 1979 is unexpectedly in some other decade. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority