4 ms·

I don't know what Marsault was doing in 1980, but one of the things I was working on was serial drivers for the 6809 board (i think) Burrell Smith had hacked to

I don't know what Marsault was doing in 1980, but one of the things I was working on was serial drivers for the 6809 board (i think) Burrell Smith had hacked together for Jef Raskin (he also designed the later 68000 board, though I know Dan Kottke had something to do with it.) I had previously written modem drivers for the Apple II and Jef helped me get the required technical docs from Apple and Hayes. What I saw of the Mac prototype in 1980 was MUCH more like what became the SwyftCard for the Apple II or the Canon Cat. It didn't have a Mouse. It had a menu based interface, not WIMP. It reminded me much more of the Apple II Pascal system (that I think Jef might have had something to do with.) But... it was absolutely a prototype, complete with wire-wrap wires going everywhere and an apple II power supply attached to the board with what looked like dangerously spliced wires. When I said the line between Raskin Mac and Jobs Mac was early '81, it's cause that's when Jobs took over the project and brought some of the ideas the Lisa team was working on with him. The Verge and Folklore.Org recently published scans of Bill Atkisson's Polaroid photos of Lisa development. And while they don't all have dates, they show that even then there was a lot of experimentation going on, even after Jobs moved from Lisa to Macintosh. If you look at the two interfaces, the major features are quite similar (WIMP, Desktop Metaphor), but several details are different (scroll bar rendering, title bars, apps). Before 1981, the Mac wasn't going to be a mouse driven, WIMP system. Heck, before 1979, when Jobs and Atkisson visited PARC, I'm not sure the Lisa was going to be a WIMP system. Things only look linear when you look at them in reverse. What I remember from this time frame is everything was changing very fast. In 1979, CP/M was *THE* business operating system for microcomputers. In 1980, enough people had seen VisiCalc that the Apple II was becoming ascendant in business microcomputing circles. And just the rumor that IBM was working on a PC in late 1980 was enough for some people to delay buying anything that year. Saying the Macintosh was a continuation of the Lisa Project is ridiculous. The Lisa guys were focused on the Lisa and the Macintosh guys were focused on the Mac. It's sort of like what Bill Gates is supposed to have quipped: "It's like we both lived next to this rich guy named Xerox. I broke into his house to steal his TV only to discover you had already stolen it." Both teams were drawing from a rich collection of ideas that were swirling around. The Mac guys benefited greatly from the Lisa team, but mostly in what not to try: the larger Lisa team was sufficiently staffed to try out a bunch of ideas, many of which didn't make the cut. And the QuickDraw that made its way into the Mac started on the Lisa. But to say this means the Lisa team was working to create the Macintosh after releasing the Lisa is ridiculous. They were two different teams with two different design objectives.

Maursault 4y ago
> but one of the things I was working on was serial drivers for the 6809 board (i think) Burrell Smith had hacked together for Jef Raskin (he also designed the later 68000 board, though I know Dan Kottke had something to do with it.) I had previously written modem drivers for the Apple II and Jef helped me get the required technical docs from Apple and Hayes. What I saw of the Mac prototype in 1980... For what it's worth, this is a transparent attempt at an informal fallacy called argument from authority. Unfortunately, unless you were an Apple employee at the time and a member of the Macintosh Project team, and no offense intended, but you have no idea what you saw. At the very best it was a prototype, and not the prototype. Again, no offense intended, but YOU don't matter, only what you say matters in so far as you can prove the veracity of the content of your assertions. "I saw it with my own eyes," or "I know what I'm talking about, I am an expert," simply doesn't carry the same weight as, "here is a dated document proving this, and here is another." > Before 1981, the Mac wasn't going to be a mouse driven, WIMP system. Heck, before 1979, when Jobs and Atkisson visited PARC, I'm not sure the Lisa was going to be a WIMP system. The mouse was invented in 1968 by Douglas Engelbart. The Xerox Alto demoed to Apple with Steve Jobs used a mouse. In a later interview about the Xerox Alto demo, of which a clip is in the OP, Steve Jobs states that he knew it was going be the future of computing. There are documents dating from at least as early as Spring of 1980 that concern the development of the Apple Mouse[1] proving that you are mistaken. By December 1979 at the very latest, the Lisa and the Macintosh were always going to be mouse driven. > Saying the Macintosh was a continuation of the Lisa Project is ridiculous. Who said that? Oh, I see, you're now advancing a straw man. Consider that the origin of Macintosh could arguably be the Lisa. Consider that the origin of Macintosh could be the Xerox Alto. Consider that the origin of Macintosh could be the Mother of All Demos. Consider that it could also be Charles Babbage's Analytical Engine. Consider that it could also be the Jacquard Loom, and for that matter it could be the abacus. "Origin" does not mean "when Steve Jobs joined the team." It means "source." [1] https://web.stanford.edu/dept/SUL/sites/mac/mouse0.html https://web.stanford.edu/dept/SUL/sites/mac/mouse0.html
- retrocryptid 4y ago
  It was a prototype, which is my point. I believe I saw a lot more than you did; are you asserting that the 2 and a half people on the Mac team in 1980 are the only ones who could identify a prototype?

Maursault 4y ago

> but one of the things I was working on was serial drivers for the 6809 board (i think) Burrell Smith had hacked together for Jef Raskin (he also designed the later 68000 board, though I know Dan Kottke had something to do with it.) I had previously written modem drivers for the Apple II and Jef helped me get the required technical docs from Apple and Hayes. What I saw of the Mac prototype in 1980... For what it's worth, this is a transparent attempt at an informal fallacy called argument from authority. Unfortunately, unless you were an Apple employee at the time and a member of the Macintosh Project team, and no offense intended, but you have no idea what you saw. At the very best it was a prototype, and not the prototype. Again, no offense intended, but YOU don't matter, only what you say matters in so far as you can prove the veracity of the content of your assertions. "I saw it with my own eyes," or "I know what I'm talking about, I am an expert," simply doesn't carry the same weight as, "here is a dated document proving this, and here is another." > Before 1981, the Mac wasn't going to be a mouse driven, WIMP system. Heck, before 1979, when Jobs and Atkisson visited PARC, I'm not sure the Lisa was going to be a WIMP system. The mouse was invented in 1968 by Douglas Engelbart. The Xerox Alto demoed to Apple with Steve Jobs used a mouse. In a later interview about the Xerox Alto demo, of which a clip is in the OP, Steve Jobs states that he knew it was going be the future of computing. There are documents dating from at least as early as Spring of 1980 that concern the development of the Apple Mouse[1] proving that you are mistaken. By December 1979 at the very latest, the Lisa and the Macintosh were always going to be mouse driven. > Saying the Macintosh was a continuation of the Lisa Project is ridiculous. Who said that? Oh, I see, you're now advancing a straw man. Consider that the origin of Macintosh could arguably be the Lisa. Consider that the origin of Macintosh could be the Xerox Alto. Consider that the origin of Macintosh could be the Mother of All Demos. Consider that it could also be Charles Babbage's Analytical Engine. Consider that it could also be the Jacquard Loom, and for that matter it could be the abacus. "Origin" does not mean "when Steve Jobs joined the team." It means "source." [1] https://web.stanford.edu/dept/SUL/sites/mac/mouse0.html https://web.stanford.edu/dept/SUL/sites/mac/mouse0.html

retrocryptid 4y ago
It was a prototype, which is my point. I believe I saw a lot more than you did; are you asserting that the 2 and a half people on the Mac team in 1980 are the only ones who could identify a prototype?