4 ms·

Orb weaver spider glue properties evolve faster than their glue genes

36 points by wglb 4y ago

MattPalmer1086 4y ago
Ummm, bad title. There is nothing here that suggests evolution of any sort. TLDR; spider glue can be produced to work in different humidities by altering the ratio of proteins in it. No evolutionary mechanism is discussed at all.
- finnh 4y ago
  in other news, "finger positioning properties evolve faster than finger genes?" Doesn't seem too surprising that spiders can change their silk for varying conditions. It's part of their body, after all - they are going to be good at using it even in microscopically different ways.
  - Hussell 4y ago
    The spiders haven't even been shown to change their silk in response to conditions. It's just two species of spiders each with their own silk recipe.
    - moi2388 4y ago
      I guess physical.org also uses ChatGPT to generate random headlines..
- sp332 4y ago
  The word "evolve" does not have such a narrow meaning outside of a specific technical context. From the paper: The ability to selectively express different glue protein genes and/or to extrude their products at different rates provides a faster mechanism to evolve material properties than sequence evolution alone.
  - MattPalmer1086 4y ago
    I disagree. Evolve has a general meaning that is widely understood, not just in a specific technical context. The fact that a spider can selectively express different proteins to suit different conditions is no different to all the other ways a living body can selectively alter protein expression to suit different conditions. We would not describe those as evolution.
    - moralestapia 4y ago
      >We would not describe those as evolution. What do you mean by "we"? Because I happen to have degrees in Genomics and Biology and I would definitely describe that as evolution.
      - MattPalmer1086 4y ago
        You are correct, and I misunderstood what the article was saying. I just skimmed the paper itself. I thought it was saying that spiders were simply adjusting the material properties of their glue in response to environmental conditions. This is not evolution. The paper is saying that while the glue genes themselves are largely conserved, the material properties can vary by altering the ratios of protein which are expressed. Presumably this ratio is controlled due to other faster evolving genes (although this is not proven by the paper as far as I can see). I'm not entirely sure if they ruled out whether spiders could in fact adjust their glue in response to changing environmental conditions.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
    - Hussell 4y ago
      Nowhere in the paper does it say that individual spiders are varying their silk composition in response to conditions. The selective expression of proteins is a difference between the two species studied, not between individuals within one species. The title is technically correct: the two species share a lot of glue genes, and the properties of their silks differ due to other genes affecting things like the ratios of glue proteins in the silk, and those genes evolved faster than the glue genes themselves.
Hussell 4y ago
Since I happen to know these species: the spider pictured at the top of the article is an Argiope bruennichi (Wasp Spider), a European species which closely resembles A. trifasciata (Banded Garden Spider, one of the two species in the study).
mkaic 4y ago
For those who would prefer a link to the original paper instead of coverage of that paper: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fevo.2023.1099481/full https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fevo.2023.10994...
dhbradshaw 4y ago
I like to think of genes as keys on a piano. But the genome also includes the a lot of the musical score. You can get a lot of different songs with a finite set of keys played in different combinations and sequences and amplitudes. In this picture, most of evolution wouldn't be changing the keys but changing the score.
waynecochran 4y ago
I didn't read the original article, but this write up does not explain the title at all. Evolution works at the genetic level does it not? What is natural selection modifying if it is not the genes?
- jrochkind1 4y ago
  Same question. I could imagine a variety of answers, I don't this it's exactly impossible, but yeah, the actual answer is the interesting thing the title had me wanting, and not getting here! Or I wonder if this popular write-up article just got it's title wrong?
- fiftyfifty 4y ago
  Someone on here recommended a book called "Wetware: A Computer in Every Living Cell" and it goes into detail but at a fairly layman level explaining how stuff like this works at the biochemical level. Basically we have genes that code for pieces of proteins and those pieces can be combined in millions of different ways to form unique proteins. Feedback systems based on proteins turn individual genes on and off to encourage the production of effective proteins. Essentially we have the ability to evolve and adapt at the protein level without any modifications to our genes. Honestly reading that book really opened my eyes to how complex this stuff really is. Biology is unbelievably robust and flexible well beyond the basic model of evolution that we are taught takes places at the genetic level.
  - waynecochran 4y ago
    Thanks -- I will hopefully have time to read more. I don't understand how the turning on and off of genes is passed to the offspring.
- yarg 4y ago
  Natural selection is the sieve, not the modifier. That quibble aside, there are also epigenetics to consider.
  - waynecochran 4y ago
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
anotheraccount9 4y ago
The article discusses the glue produced by orb web and cobweb weaving spiders in the Araneoidea superfamily. The glue is produced in specialized silk glands and is responsive to the environment. Researchers compared the glue of two spider species and found that both species had around 30 proteins contributing to the stickiness of the glue, but the number and relative contribution of each protein group differed between the two species. The ability to selectively express different glue protein genes provides a faster mechanism to evolve material properties than sequence evolution alone.
pazimzadeh 4y ago
What's not mentioned in this lay-man summary, but is mentioned in the original article is glycosylation. https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fevo.2023.1099481/full https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fevo.2023.10994... Glycosylation is a post-translational modification that affects dramatic impact on protein function, especially their "stickiness." There are distinct genes which are responsible for encoding glycosyl transferases, which "decorate" the proteins after they are made. The fact that whoever wrote this article thinks these are not "glue genes" is a fallacy of composition. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_composition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_composition The article mentions that the proteins in question are highly glycosylated and concludes "Divergence in material properties likely also involves selective gene expression, post translational protein modifications, and differences in the rates of extrusion of constituent glue proteins." Therefore, the title is click-bait.

36 points by wglb 4y ago

Ummm, bad title. There is nothing here that suggests evolution of any sort. TLDR; spider glue can be produced to work in different humidities by altering the ratio of proteins in it. No evolutionary mechanism is discussed at all.

finnh 4y ago
in other news, "finger positioning properties evolve faster than finger genes?" Doesn't seem too surprising that spiders can change their silk for varying conditions. It's part of their body, after all - they are going to be good at using it even in microscopically different ways.
- Hussell 4y ago
  The spiders haven't even been shown to change their silk in response to conditions. It's just two species of spiders each with their own silk recipe.
  - moi2388 4y ago
    I guess physical.org also uses ChatGPT to generate random headlines..
sp332 4y ago
The word "evolve" does not have such a narrow meaning outside of a specific technical context. From the paper: The ability to selectively express different glue protein genes and/or to extrude their products at different rates provides a faster mechanism to evolve material properties than sequence evolution alone.
- MattPalmer1086 4y ago
  I disagree. Evolve has a general meaning that is widely understood, not just in a specific technical context. The fact that a spider can selectively express different proteins to suit different conditions is no different to all the other ways a living body can selectively alter protein expression to suit different conditions. We would not describe those as evolution.
  - moralestapia 4y ago
    >We would not describe those as evolution. What do you mean by "we"? Because I happen to have degrees in Genomics and Biology and I would definitely describe that as evolution.
    - MattPalmer1086 4y ago
      You are correct, and I misunderstood what the article was saying. I just skimmed the paper itself. I thought it was saying that spiders were simply adjusting the material properties of their glue in response to environmental conditions. This is not evolution. The paper is saying that while the glue genes themselves are largely conserved, the material properties can vary by altering the ratios of protein which are expressed. Presumably this ratio is controlled due to other faster evolving genes (although this is not proven by the paper as far as I can see). I'm not entirely sure if they ruled out whether spiders could in fact adjust their glue in response to changing environmental conditions.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
  - Hussell 4y ago
    Nowhere in the paper does it say that individual spiders are varying their silk composition in response to conditions. The selective expression of proteins is a difference between the two species studied, not between individuals within one species. The title is technically correct: the two species share a lot of glue genes, and the properties of their silks differ due to other genes affecting things like the ratios of glue proteins in the silk, and those genes evolved faster than the glue genes themselves.

Hussell 4y ago

Since I happen to know these species: the spider pictured at the top of the article is an Argiope bruennichi (Wasp Spider), a European species which closely resembles A. trifasciata (Banded Garden Spider, one of the two species in the study).

mkaic 4y ago

For those who would prefer a link to the original paper instead of coverage of that paper: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fevo.2023.1099481/full https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fevo.2023.10994...

dhbradshaw 4y ago

I like to think of genes as keys on a piano. But the genome also includes the a lot of the musical score. You can get a lot of different songs with a finite set of keys played in different combinations and sequences and amplitudes. In this picture, most of evolution wouldn't be changing the keys but changing the score.

waynecochran 4y ago

I didn't read the original article, but this write up does not explain the title at all. Evolution works at the genetic level does it not? What is natural selection modifying if it is not the genes?

jrochkind1 4y ago
Same question. I could imagine a variety of answers, I don't this it's exactly impossible, but yeah, the actual answer is the interesting thing the title had me wanting, and not getting here! Or I wonder if this popular write-up article just got it's title wrong?
fiftyfifty 4y ago
Someone on here recommended a book called "Wetware: A Computer in Every Living Cell" and it goes into detail but at a fairly layman level explaining how stuff like this works at the biochemical level. Basically we have genes that code for pieces of proteins and those pieces can be combined in millions of different ways to form unique proteins. Feedback systems based on proteins turn individual genes on and off to encourage the production of effective proteins. Essentially we have the ability to evolve and adapt at the protein level without any modifications to our genes. Honestly reading that book really opened my eyes to how complex this stuff really is. Biology is unbelievably robust and flexible well beyond the basic model of evolution that we are taught takes places at the genetic level.
- waynecochran 4y ago
  Thanks -- I will hopefully have time to read more. I don't understand how the turning on and off of genes is passed to the offspring.
yarg 4y ago
Natural selection is the sieve, not the modifier. That quibble aside, there are also epigenetics to consider.
- waynecochran 4y ago

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

anotheraccount9 4y ago

The article discusses the glue produced by orb web and cobweb weaving spiders in the Araneoidea superfamily. The glue is produced in specialized silk glands and is responsive to the environment. Researchers compared the glue of two spider species and found that both species had around 30 proteins contributing to the stickiness of the glue, but the number and relative contribution of each protein group differed between the two species. The ability to selectively express different glue protein genes provides a faster mechanism to evolve material properties than sequence evolution alone.

pazimzadeh 4y ago

What's not mentioned in this lay-man summary, but is mentioned in the original article is glycosylation. https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fevo.2023.1099481/full https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fevo.2023.10994... Glycosylation is a post-translational modification that affects dramatic impact on protein function, especially their "stickiness." There are distinct genes which are responsible for encoding glycosyl transferases, which "decorate" the proteins after they are made. The fact that whoever wrote this article thinks these are not "glue genes" is a fallacy of composition. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_composition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_composition The article mentions that the proteins in question are highly glycosylated and concludes "Divergence in material properties likely also involves selective gene expression, post translational protein modifications, and differences in the rates of extrusion of constituent glue proteins." Therefore, the title is click-bait.