4 ms·

This explanation feels kind of awkward. My left hand does not depend on my orientation, so I am unclear why the "left side" of a boat would. I get why there a

by taeric 4y ago

This explanation feels kind of awkward. My left hand does not depend on my orientation, so I am unclear why the "left side" of a boat would. I get why there are better terms to use when talking about others. At least, I think I do. But it feels like there is more history to these terms than just "needs to be fixed."

FoomFries 4y ago
Because if you face the back of the boat the sides reverse. It’s similar to stage left. When you can’t afford to be confused, one name is better than a conflicting argument between your left and the boats left.
- taeric 4y ago
  But if I'm looking at you and speak of your left hand, I am not speaking of the hand to my left. Literally nobody does that. At least not on purpose.
  - lesuorac 4y ago
    Do you own a car? Commonly when speaking with a mechanic they'll ask questions like Driver's side or Passenger's side to get away from left/right. People very often describe things with just _left_ or just _right_. They don't say things like when I'm sitting in the car the door to my left is hard to open. They just say the left door is broken even when both them and the mechanic are facing the car head on. By having people use an unambiguous vocabulary it makes up for people not thinking about how their statements will be interpreted. If the deckhands were genius's they're be charting the course not heaving rope.
    - taeric 4y ago
      You aren't wrong. In that mistakes can be made. But if I ask you about your left hand, is that ambiguous? By your definition here, that is an ambiguous question. But, that just feels wrong. Edit: I'll note that it is amusing to compare to cars. It seems the etymology of the terms is literally "driver side".
      - rng_civ 4y ago
        It's not ambiguous because you have a directional reference built into the phrase and speaking directly to a singular person: "ask you about your left hand". It is certainly clear if one would say "left facing stern" or "left facing aft", but that's a mouthful when you can just shorten it (and the reference facing direction is not relevant). Bonus points if the shortened version can't be mistaken for another direction... BTW, I'm 100% down for introducing dedicated words for "my left", "your left" etc vs just "on the left". It would certainly save me a bit of time when my family asks me to look for something and they flip between the two meanings in the same sentence.
        taeric 4y ago
        This still falls due to you having to have a point of reference for front of boat. See other threads where double ended ones do not have fixed starboard and port. I am still on board with dedicated terms.
    - tomrod 4y ago
      Ambiguity can be cultural. In some dialects in the Philippines, the only required preposition is "sa". Others exist, but aren't required for speaking. It's intriguing to say the least.
    - bch 4y ago
      Reminds me of this book[0] about (air-cooled) VW maintenance, which goes right into how to tear down and rebuild the engine. Anyway, it can be disorienting, at the back of the car, looking at the engine and knowing what’s front/back, but I recall he wrote something like: Now look at the front of the engine (FRONT IS FRONT) and you’ll see… Also, happens to generally be one of the most beautiful to read and to look-at technical manuals I can think of. Right up there w The C Programming Language. [0] https://olsensvw.net/shop/engine/idiot-book-how-to-keep-your-volkswagen-alive/ https://olsensvw.net/shop/engine/idiot-book-how-to-keep-your...
  - Uehreka 4y ago
    The problem is that people (especially in stressful situations when they’re not thinking carefully) will say things like “that one on the left!” and the person they’re talking to (who is often facing them and thus reversed) won’t think to ask “my left or yours?” But if you train people to use specifically-invented unambiguous terms that can’t be screwed up, their brains will reach for those words when they’re in trouble.
  - DonHopkins 4y ago
    What if you're addressing someone on a boat who's facing sideways? Or a group of people facing different directions? Or you can't see them and don't know which direction they're facing, and they don't know which direction you're facing?
binarymax 4y ago
Because left and right are ambiguous - are you talking about MY left or the boat’s left? Having unambiguous names let’s us differentiate and avoid confusion. It might be hard to grok the need for this if you’ve never been in a tight spot while sailing or operating a watercraft with a crew - but having this distinction has probably saved thousands of bad incidents from happening.
- taeric 4y ago
  I can see it as advantageous. With the major caveat that it is only advantageous to folks that have been taught it. Not shockingly, a large portion of the passengers on a boat are going to be confused if told to go to the starboard windows to see the whales that are beside the boat. How will you explain it? I'm going to guess that you will probably say "right." :D. (Note that this isn't hypothetical. I take a ferry fairly often, and surprisingly few of us know starboard from port.)
  - xg15 4y ago
    Yes, in that situation, you can confidently tell them to look to their right, because you can assume that most of them will sit in direction of travel and face forward. However, the same is not true for a sailor who might be running around on deck.
    - taeric 4y ago
      This isn't accurate, either. Most of us are decidedly not facing the direction of travel. Specifically, we are evenly split in large parts of the boat, as they have bench chairs that face each other. Or you are on the side of the boat facing out. The ferry is actually a very odd boat in this, btw. As I am not clear that starboard/port are fixed. The boat literally goes in both directions, such that I'm assuming I don't have to know which is the "front" of it irrespective of the direction it is currently traveling. I get your point, that things can be difficult. And I appreciate having jargon that is specific for an attempt to make things clearer. I just find this as the sole explanation kind of unsatisfactory. Seeing the history of the terms makes a lot more sense.
bloppe 4y ago
Because "boat left" and "boat right" just didn't catch on.
gerdesj 4y ago
True but you are not wandering around yourself! I agree though that the first para looks like just so nonsense. I know plenty of matelots (UK Navy) that use left and right, sharp end and blunt end for the cardinal points of a vessel. I do as well and use port, starb'd, bow and stern as they do too. Ironically enough, port and starboard markers which are the red and green buoys you see near to ports (yes!) need to be considered in reverse when going out. The green ones are called starboard markers and if you are in a big enough vessel, you should keep them off your starboard (right) side when approaching a port from the open seas. On the way out from port to the open seas you should keep the red ones on your right instead. If you don't you will hit the seabed and sink. Once you have got the hang of p/s buoys, you just need to get to grips with cardinal markers and a few other things and the way you drive on the sea will start to make sense. Even Brits drive on the right on the seas! There is a general rule that "power gives way to sail". That's fine for vessels of similar size. However I have seen 30' yachts on the Baltic try to persuade 100,000+ tonne tankers of this and not really getting the fact that inertia means that the big lump can't really turn in any meaningful way - they sort of orbit! Overtaking vessel keeps clear. On odd numbered years when Mars is in Saturn on a Friday you should dance with a Nun for three minutes at midnight every 70 days, unless it's Lent or you are a Nun in which case you should dance with an otter. There are a few more rules but that is largely it. Maritime isn't too complicated but do remember that the road has a habit of jumping 30' or more upwards or down simply for a laugh.
- soneil 4y ago
  > Ironically enough, port and starboard markers which are the red and green buoys you see near to ports (yes!) need to be considered in reverse when going out. The green ones are called starboard markers and if you are in a big enough vessel, you should keep them off your starboard (right) side when approaching a port from the open seas. On the way out from port to the open seas you should keep the red ones on your right instead. If you don't you will hit the seabed and sink. Just to keep things fun, that's the european convention. In the US it's "red right returning", the exact opposite.
  - gerdesj 4y ago
uoaei 4y ago
There is no "left", there is only "your left" or "my left".

by taeric 4y ago

FoomFries 4y ago

Because if you face the back of the boat the sides reverse. It’s similar to stage left. When you can’t afford to be confused, one name is better than a conflicting argument between your left and the boats left.

taeric 4y ago
But if I'm looking at you and speak of your left hand, I am not speaking of the hand to my left. Literally nobody does that. At least not on purpose.
- lesuorac 4y ago
  Do you own a car? Commonly when speaking with a mechanic they'll ask questions like Driver's side or Passenger's side to get away from left/right. People very often describe things with just _left_ or just _right_. They don't say things like when I'm sitting in the car the door to my left is hard to open. They just say the left door is broken even when both them and the mechanic are facing the car head on. By having people use an unambiguous vocabulary it makes up for people not thinking about how their statements will be interpreted. If the deckhands were genius's they're be charting the course not heaving rope.
  - taeric 4y ago
    You aren't wrong. In that mistakes can be made. But if I ask you about your left hand, is that ambiguous? By your definition here, that is an ambiguous question. But, that just feels wrong. Edit: I'll note that it is amusing to compare to cars. It seems the etymology of the terms is literally "driver side".
    - rng_civ 4y ago
      It's not ambiguous because you have a directional reference built into the phrase and speaking directly to a singular person: "ask you about your left hand". It is certainly clear if one would say "left facing stern" or "left facing aft", but that's a mouthful when you can just shorten it (and the reference facing direction is not relevant). Bonus points if the shortened version can't be mistaken for another direction... BTW, I'm 100% down for introducing dedicated words for "my left", "your left" etc vs just "on the left". It would certainly save me a bit of time when my family asks me to look for something and they flip between the two meanings in the same sentence.
      - taeric 4y ago
        This still falls due to you having to have a point of reference for front of boat. See other threads where double ended ones do not have fixed starboard and port. I am still on board with dedicated terms.
  - tomrod 4y ago
    Ambiguity can be cultural. In some dialects in the Philippines, the only required preposition is "sa". Others exist, but aren't required for speaking. It's intriguing to say the least.
  - bch 4y ago
    Reminds me of this book[0] about (air-cooled) VW maintenance, which goes right into how to tear down and rebuild the engine. Anyway, it can be disorienting, at the back of the car, looking at the engine and knowing what’s front/back, but I recall he wrote something like: Now look at the front of the engine (FRONT IS FRONT) and you’ll see… Also, happens to generally be one of the most beautiful to read and to look-at technical manuals I can think of. Right up there w The C Programming Language. [0] https://olsensvw.net/shop/engine/idiot-book-how-to-keep-your-volkswagen-alive/ https://olsensvw.net/shop/engine/idiot-book-how-to-keep-your...
- Uehreka 4y ago
  The problem is that people (especially in stressful situations when they’re not thinking carefully) will say things like “that one on the left!” and the person they’re talking to (who is often facing them and thus reversed) won’t think to ask “my left or yours?” But if you train people to use specifically-invented unambiguous terms that can’t be screwed up, their brains will reach for those words when they’re in trouble.
- DonHopkins 4y ago
  What if you're addressing someone on a boat who's facing sideways? Or a group of people facing different directions? Or you can't see them and don't know which direction they're facing, and they don't know which direction you're facing?

binarymax 4y ago

Because left and right are ambiguous - are you talking about MY left or the boat’s left? Having unambiguous names let’s us differentiate and avoid confusion. It might be hard to grok the need for this if you’ve never been in a tight spot while sailing or operating a watercraft with a crew - but having this distinction has probably saved thousands of bad incidents from happening.

taeric 4y ago
I can see it as advantageous. With the major caveat that it is only advantageous to folks that have been taught it. Not shockingly, a large portion of the passengers on a boat are going to be confused if told to go to the starboard windows to see the whales that are beside the boat. How will you explain it? I'm going to guess that you will probably say "right." :D. (Note that this isn't hypothetical. I take a ferry fairly often, and surprisingly few of us know starboard from port.)
- xg15 4y ago
  Yes, in that situation, you can confidently tell them to look to their right, because you can assume that most of them will sit in direction of travel and face forward. However, the same is not true for a sailor who might be running around on deck.
  - taeric 4y ago
    This isn't accurate, either. Most of us are decidedly not facing the direction of travel. Specifically, we are evenly split in large parts of the boat, as they have bench chairs that face each other. Or you are on the side of the boat facing out. The ferry is actually a very odd boat in this, btw. As I am not clear that starboard/port are fixed. The boat literally goes in both directions, such that I'm assuming I don't have to know which is the "front" of it irrespective of the direction it is currently traveling. I get your point, that things can be difficult. And I appreciate having jargon that is specific for an attempt to make things clearer. I just find this as the sole explanation kind of unsatisfactory. Seeing the history of the terms makes a lot more sense.

bloppe 4y ago

Because "boat left" and "boat right" just didn't catch on.

gerdesj 4y ago

True but you are not wandering around yourself! I agree though that the first para looks like just so nonsense. I know plenty of matelots (UK Navy) that use left and right, sharp end and blunt end for the cardinal points of a vessel. I do as well and use port, starb'd, bow and stern as they do too. Ironically enough, port and starboard markers which are the red and green buoys you see near to ports (yes!) need to be considered in reverse when going out. The green ones are called starboard markers and if you are in a big enough vessel, you should keep them off your starboard (right) side when approaching a port from the open seas. On the way out from port to the open seas you should keep the red ones on your right instead. If you don't you will hit the seabed and sink. Once you have got the hang of p/s buoys, you just need to get to grips with cardinal markers and a few other things and the way you drive on the sea will start to make sense. Even Brits drive on the right on the seas! There is a general rule that "power gives way to sail". That's fine for vessels of similar size. However I have seen 30' yachts on the Baltic try to persuade 100,000+ tonne tankers of this and not really getting the fact that inertia means that the big lump can't really turn in any meaningful way - they sort of orbit! Overtaking vessel keeps clear. On odd numbered years when Mars is in Saturn on a Friday you should dance with a Nun for three minutes at midnight every 70 days, unless it's Lent or you are a Nun in which case you should dance with an otter. There are a few more rules but that is largely it. Maritime isn't too complicated but do remember that the road has a habit of jumping 30' or more upwards or down simply for a laugh.

soneil 4y ago
> Ironically enough, port and starboard markers which are the red and green buoys you see near to ports (yes!) need to be considered in reverse when going out. The green ones are called starboard markers and if you are in a big enough vessel, you should keep them off your starboard (right) side when approaching a port from the open seas. On the way out from port to the open seas you should keep the red ones on your right instead. If you don't you will hit the seabed and sink. Just to keep things fun, that's the european convention. In the US it's "red right returning", the exact opposite.
- gerdesj 4y ago

uoaei 4y ago

There is no "left", there is only "your left" or "my left".