7 ms·

> How can the police effectively prove that someone remembers the passcode? if they can prove you were using the phone an hour ago that would probably do it

negidius 4y ago
The stress of being arrested and threatened with years in prison if you don't remember your passcode could very well cause someone to forget it.
- blibble 4y ago
  the thing is it's not incontrovertible proof, it's "beyond reasonable doubt" the prosecution would show up with when you bought the phone, how many times you'd used it, that you used it 80 times in the last hour, and so on and it comes down to whether or not a jury would believe that you had really forgotten it (despite that evidence)
  - negidius 4y ago
    Which means that someone who forgets their passcode because of the stress of being arrested and threatened with years in prison could easily be wrongfully convicted. It's a horrible law, even for those who don't care about privacy.
    - blibble 4y ago
      I am not a fan of the RIP Act (and there's plenty more badness in there) but playing devil's advocate, without this specific offence the disclosure sections would be completely ineffectual (remember the UK also allows adverse inferences to be made from silence, it is not the US)
      - flangola7 4y ago
        If you can't remain silent then what are you supposed to do to not accidentally incriminate yourself?
        tristor 4y ago
        This is one of the reasons why other countries outside the US aren't as free as the US, even though the US is a complete mess too in different ways. Freedom of both speech and silence are not really respected in law anywhere outside the US to the extent that they are in the US.
        kspacewalk2 4y ago
        Many many countries have rules against drawing adverse inferences from silence, including event Scotland, which is part of the UK.
        midoridensha 4y ago
        Scotland really should leave the UK, and then rejoin the EU. They'd be better off.
        TeaDude 4y ago
        They also have apecific devolved laws that you can be arrested for illegal speech in your own home and your children can be interrogated about it.
        1827162 4y ago
        https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/10/29/sending-the-thought-polis-into-scottish-homes/ https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/10/29/sending-the-thought... Yes, the Scottish Hate Crime bill. And as expected, they are trying to expand it to cover misogyny. So someone's going to end up serving time for a silly joke they made in a pub. https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/scots-give-backing-to-make-misogyny-a-hate-crime-0lcfx6wtl https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/scots-give-backing-to-mak... https://www.spiked-online.com/2021/09/11/why-misogyny-must-not-become-a-hate-crime/ https://www.spiked-online.com/2021/09/11/why-misogyny-must-n... https://www.spiked-online.com/2022/03/16/dont-make-misogyny-a-hate-crime/ https://www.spiked-online.com/2022/03/16/dont-make-misogyny-...
      - miles 4y ago
        > remember the UK also allows adverse inferences to be made from silence, it is not the US Even in the US, the law has changed rather drastically[0]: “The only way to prevent the government from introducing evidence of the suspect's silence at trial is to explicitly invoke (assert) the right to say nothing. In other words, without being warned by the police or advised by a lawyer, and without even the benefit of the familiar Miranda warnings (which might trigger an ‘I want to invoke my right to be silent!’), the interviewee must apparently say words to the effect of, ‘I invoke my privilege against self-incrimination.’” [0] https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/when-how-invoke-your-right-silence.html https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/when-how-invoke-your...
    - yongjik 4y ago
      IANAL but it sounds like this defense would be received about as well as "Your honor, the defendant was in grave stress of being arrested and threatened with years in prison. That's why he completely forgot why and how he parked his car next to Crosby Lake and was walking in the shallow water, carrying an identified bag, at 3am."
      - mike_hock 4y ago
        So basically that just proves the parent poster's point because the burden of proof is on the prosecution to prove that the defendant was carrying a bag containing a body and the defendant is under no obligation to remember or justify parking his car by the lake at 3am and walking around.
      - bippihippi1 4y ago
        The defendant didn't admit to a crime and wouldn't open their house to unreasonable search. how suspicious
  - counttheforks 4y ago
    right, you are explaining why the law is ridiculous and unfair
  - yencabulator 4y ago
    The lesson to take away from that is to have a smaller compartment (or multiple) inside the computer that contains all the juicy stuff. Unlock the main one, claim to have forgotten the keys for the juicy compartments, and you're keeping it around in hopes of remembering the key one day.
- jimmygrapes 4y ago
  Just today (and many times before) I witnessed a coworker flummoxed by their Windows log in PIN not working. They insisted it was the same thing they used to log in not even 10 minutes ago, before locking it to go pee. However perhaps because I was asking for immediate information, the PIN they used countless times per day simply didn't work. I said "don't worry about it, I'll figure it out" and walked away. Few seconds later they shouted down the hall, "It worked this time, what did you need again?"
  - lenkite 4y ago
    Folks mistype when they are in a hurry. They were likely remembering it correctly but not inputing it properly until you walked away.
- ericbarrett 4y ago
  A few weeks ago my house sprang a massive leak in the roof during a rainstorm, just as I was preparing for a week-long business trip. I got so stressed, the next morning I forgot the passcode I'd been typing into my iPhone for the last five years. Three days of carefully writing down my attempts didn't work—I hit the ten-mistake limit and the phone auto-wiped.
  - carlmr 4y ago
    Especially that. I forgot my pin once in a stressful situation as well, and that wiped my brain. I ordered a new SIM card which was luckily enough. But sometimes you store something in muscle memory, not number memory.
  - plonq 4y ago
    Something similar happened to me (though I did eventually remember). Now I always save PINs and passcodes in a password manager
  - anonzzzies 4y ago
    I invalidated my debit card in a similar event. I used it hours before but suddenly for the life of me I couldn’t remember the 4 digits and nor could my fingers. It was after I heard about a death of a relative. Eventually I remembered but the card was already useless and a new one had been dispatched to me.
  - eviks 4y ago
    Yeah, 10 is a stupidly low limit, it won't save you from some hackers, and it won't help you much when you forget
lenkite 4y ago
Actually, I forgot the passcode to my phone after being involved in an accident. It was utterly nerve wracking. Got blasted by so many people for not calling up and I was embarrassed to admit that I couldn't remember my passcode. I had gotten used to putting in the passcode without even seeing the screen and completely lost this muscle memory at the time of the accident - likely due to high stress. I did not remember it later either - it was like my mind just rejected the memory and simply couldn't place out what were the exact digits. Became far more understanding of my parents forgetting stuff after that incident. Anyways, the point is that you can un-believably forget the phone passcode at a time of stress. Sure, some cool-as-cucumber humans will never forget anything, but the vast majority of people are not like that.

negidius 4y ago

The stress of being arrested and threatened with years in prison if you don't remember your passcode could very well cause someone to forget it.

blibble 4y ago
the thing is it's not incontrovertible proof, it's "beyond reasonable doubt" the prosecution would show up with when you bought the phone, how many times you'd used it, that you used it 80 times in the last hour, and so on and it comes down to whether or not a jury would believe that you had really forgotten it (despite that evidence)
- negidius 4y ago
  Which means that someone who forgets their passcode because of the stress of being arrested and threatened with years in prison could easily be wrongfully convicted. It's a horrible law, even for those who don't care about privacy.
  - blibble 4y ago
    I am not a fan of the RIP Act (and there's plenty more badness in there) but playing devil's advocate, without this specific offence the disclosure sections would be completely ineffectual (remember the UK also allows adverse inferences to be made from silence, it is not the US)
    - flangola7 4y ago
      If you can't remain silent then what are you supposed to do to not accidentally incriminate yourself?
      - tristor 4y ago
        This is one of the reasons why other countries outside the US aren't as free as the US, even though the US is a complete mess too in different ways. Freedom of both speech and silence are not really respected in law anywhere outside the US to the extent that they are in the US.
        kspacewalk2 4y ago
        Many many countries have rules against drawing adverse inferences from silence, including event Scotland, which is part of the UK.
        midoridensha 4y ago
        Scotland really should leave the UK, and then rejoin the EU. They'd be better off.
        TeaDude 4y ago
        They also have apecific devolved laws that you can be arrested for illegal speech in your own home and your children can be interrogated about it.
        1827162 4y ago
        https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/10/29/sending-the-thought-polis-into-scottish-homes/ https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/10/29/sending-the-thought... Yes, the Scottish Hate Crime bill. And as expected, they are trying to expand it to cover misogyny. So someone's going to end up serving time for a silly joke they made in a pub. https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/scots-give-backing-to-make-misogyny-a-hate-crime-0lcfx6wtl https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/scots-give-backing-to-mak... https://www.spiked-online.com/2021/09/11/why-misogyny-must-not-become-a-hate-crime/ https://www.spiked-online.com/2021/09/11/why-misogyny-must-n... https://www.spiked-online.com/2022/03/16/dont-make-misogyny-a-hate-crime/ https://www.spiked-online.com/2022/03/16/dont-make-misogyny-...
    - miles 4y ago
      > remember the UK also allows adverse inferences to be made from silence, it is not the US Even in the US, the law has changed rather drastically[0]: “The only way to prevent the government from introducing evidence of the suspect's silence at trial is to explicitly invoke (assert) the right to say nothing. In other words, without being warned by the police or advised by a lawyer, and without even the benefit of the familiar Miranda warnings (which might trigger an ‘I want to invoke my right to be silent!’), the interviewee must apparently say words to the effect of, ‘I invoke my privilege against self-incrimination.’” [0] https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/when-how-invoke-your-right-silence.html https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/when-how-invoke-your...
  - yongjik 4y ago
    IANAL but it sounds like this defense would be received about as well as "Your honor, the defendant was in grave stress of being arrested and threatened with years in prison. That's why he completely forgot why and how he parked his car next to Crosby Lake and was walking in the shallow water, carrying an identified bag, at 3am."
    - mike_hock 4y ago
      So basically that just proves the parent poster's point because the burden of proof is on the prosecution to prove that the defendant was carrying a bag containing a body and the defendant is under no obligation to remember or justify parking his car by the lake at 3am and walking around.
    - bippihippi1 4y ago
      The defendant didn't admit to a crime and wouldn't open their house to unreasonable search. how suspicious
- counttheforks 4y ago
  right, you are explaining why the law is ridiculous and unfair
- yencabulator 4y ago
  The lesson to take away from that is to have a smaller compartment (or multiple) inside the computer that contains all the juicy stuff. Unlock the main one, claim to have forgotten the keys for the juicy compartments, and you're keeping it around in hopes of remembering the key one day.
jimmygrapes 4y ago
Just today (and many times before) I witnessed a coworker flummoxed by their Windows log in PIN not working. They insisted it was the same thing they used to log in not even 10 minutes ago, before locking it to go pee. However perhaps because I was asking for immediate information, the PIN they used countless times per day simply didn't work. I said "don't worry about it, I'll figure it out" and walked away. Few seconds later they shouted down the hall, "It worked this time, what did you need again?"
- lenkite 4y ago
  Folks mistype when they are in a hurry. They were likely remembering it correctly but not inputing it properly until you walked away.
ericbarrett 4y ago
A few weeks ago my house sprang a massive leak in the roof during a rainstorm, just as I was preparing for a week-long business trip. I got so stressed, the next morning I forgot the passcode I'd been typing into my iPhone for the last five years. Three days of carefully writing down my attempts didn't work—I hit the ten-mistake limit and the phone auto-wiped.
- carlmr 4y ago
  Especially that. I forgot my pin once in a stressful situation as well, and that wiped my brain. I ordered a new SIM card which was luckily enough. But sometimes you store something in muscle memory, not number memory.
- plonq 4y ago
  Something similar happened to me (though I did eventually remember). Now I always save PINs and passcodes in a password manager
- anonzzzies 4y ago
  I invalidated my debit card in a similar event. I used it hours before but suddenly for the life of me I couldn’t remember the 4 digits and nor could my fingers. It was after I heard about a death of a relative. Eventually I remembered but the card was already useless and a new one had been dispatched to me.
- eviks 4y ago
  Yeah, 10 is a stupidly low limit, it won't save you from some hackers, and it won't help you much when you forget

lenkite 4y ago

Actually, I forgot the passcode to my phone after being involved in an accident. It was utterly nerve wracking. Got blasted by so many people for not calling up and I was embarrassed to admit that I couldn't remember my passcode. I had gotten used to putting in the passcode without even seeing the screen and completely lost this muscle memory at the time of the accident - likely due to high stress. I did not remember it later either - it was like my mind just rejected the memory and simply couldn't place out what were the exact digits. Became far more understanding of my parents forgetting stuff after that incident. Anyways, the point is that you can un-believably forget the phone passcode at a time of stress. Sure, some cool-as-cucumber humans will never forget anything, but the vast majority of people are not like that.