7 ms·

>> Absolutely not. The Lisa project started in '78. The Mac effectively started in '81 when Jobs horned in on Jef Raskin's Macintosh project. Please draw a lin

>> Absolutely not. The Lisa project started in '78. The Mac effectively started in '81 when Jobs horned in on Jef Raskin's Macintosh project. Please draw a line delineating Lisa development and Mac development. The origin of Mac development is in the development of Lisa which arguably began the day Apple visited Xerox Parc to demo Alto. There is a transitive action here, without Alto, there's no Lisa, and there's no Mac. Thus my statement that Mac development began in the late 70's is generally true even if the Mac team was not organized until 1981. While your arguing the differences between Lisa and Mac is a clear straw man, your, "Absolutely" is absolutely misplaced and strictly false.

AlbertCory 4y ago
> Lisa which arguably began the day Apple visited Xerox Parc to demo Alto "arguably" doing a lot of work here. Your argument is wrong. Lisa was already underway then. His statements are well-grounded and correct, while you apparently just read a couple articles.
- Maursault 3y ago
  > Lisa was already underway then. It really wasn't. While technically the project slightly predated Apple's visit to Xerox Parc, that demo drastically changed the the project's direction and goals to produce a product entirely unlike initially conceived, which was effectively an Apple ][ geared towards business, but to claim it was "underway" is false. > while you apparently just read a couple articles. This is an ad hominem argument. And his statements are false as I have proven with supported citation in another comment. Just a friendly suggestion, but if you can not tolerate criticism in any form, and are sensitive about acknowledging mistakes, immediately going on the offensive compelled to make personal attacks out of a sensitivity to pride, which is no virtue, and I am saying IF (I don't know you), then this behavior is classifiable clinically and often solvable through therapy. These symptoms in and of themselves aren't really the problem, it's the other symptoms, that go along with them, which causes those you care about to suffer, that are.
  - AlbertCory 3y ago
    OK, you need to calm down & then go away. Let's review: 1) first of all, you make this unwarranted dig: "Did you correspond with him, or merely make it into his spam folder?" No apology. 2) then you just say "false" and let someone explain what they think you meant. No apology. 3) then you say "a misguided attempt to be relevant, or you are simply trying to cover up your mistake in insinuating Mac owes something to Star." No apology for the projection about an "insinuation" which is entirely in your own mind. Or for the "attempt to be relevant" which is an insult. 4) and then this: "just a friendly suggestion, but if you can not tolerate criticism in any form, and are sensitive about acknowledging mistakes, immediately going on the offensive compelled to make personal attacks out of a sensitivity to pride, which is no virtue, and I am saying IF (I don't know you), then this behavior is classifiable clinically and often solvable through therapy" You are nothing more than an Internet troll. We're done here.
    - Maursault 3y ago
      That you are apparently easily offended and paranoid that you have been attacked are two more symptoms. I am not responsible for your emotions. For the sake of those you care about, get evaluated and seek treatment. It is easy, cheap, non-invasive, drug free, and enjoyable, and I assure you that you'll never regret that you did. Your next emotion is going to be denial, which I'm afraid is also a symptom. If you won't seek treatment, then please consider that your pride is not a virtue. Its exact opposite, humility, is the virtue.
retrocryptid 4y ago
The line is sometime after early 1981, when Jobs took over the Macintosh project from Jef Raskin. Mac development did not start with the Lisa, Lisa development started with the Lisa. The Mac and the Lisa are distinct products and projects. It's kind of funny you're saying I'm putting up a strawman. But... whatever. If Mac development started with the Alto in the early 70s or the Lisa in the late 70s, then shouldn't we also say Mac development started with PDP development in the 60s that influenced the design of the 74181 chips used in the Alto? No. Because that's silly. A project starts when the project starts and the project starters elucidate an objective. When the Alto launched, no one said "hey, let's build this computer that will one day become a small desktop computer for another company." They build the Alto for their own reasons. When the Lisa project started, it's objective was to build a "modern" system at Apple. When the Macintosh project started in 1980, it was intended to build an inexpensive, keyboard-based, non-expandable 6809-based system as a follow-on to the Apple ][. In '81 when Jobs took over the Macintosh project he added features from the Lisa (mouse, bit-mapped display, proportional fonts, WIMP) but Apple didn't cancel the Lisa and say "The Lisa is now the Macintosh." They were considered separate products targeting different markets. Which is why in the original Macintosh business plan it says "The Lisa is a different product than the Macintosh and has a different target market."
- AlbertCory 4y ago
  You know your stuff. Maursault does not.
- Maursault 3y ago
  > The line is sometime after early 1981 FALSE. "1979 March Jef Raskin proposes the original Macintosh project to Mike Markkula..... 1979 September Macintosh project formally begins, although some preliminary work was done as early as late 1978." [1] "The early Mac team members in 1979 consisted of Jef Raskin, Brian Howard, Marc LeBrun, Burrell Smith, Joanna Hoffman, and Bud Tribble."[2] "The former head of publications and quality assurance at Apple, Raskin had proposed the project to Mike Markkula in 1979."[3] "The Macintosh project started in the late 1970s with Jef Raskin.... In September 1979, Raskin was authorized by the management to start hiring for the project, and he began to look for an engineer who could put together a prototype.[4] "Parallel to the Lisa's development, a skunkworks team at Apple was working on another project. Conceived in 1979* by Jef Raskin, the Macintosh was envisioned as an affordable, easy-to-use computer for the masses, with the Lisa's graphical interface."[5] Raskin started hiring for the Macintosh Project, and it began in earnest, in name, and in an official capacity at Apple nearly a full two years before Jobs took over the project and three months before Apple famously visited Xerox Parc. And Jef Raskin was far more contributive to the development of Macintosh than Steve Jobs, who took the project over in the late middle of its development with only a stark handful of changes, requirements and specifications. Nevertheless, development of Macintosh was intimately intertwined with that Xerox's demo of Alto and the co-development of Lisa at Apple. For example, all of the early Macintosh software was developed on Lisa, and they both shared the same product design language. The Lisa was ultimately rebranded as a Macintosh XL before it was cancelled. The development lines are clearly blurred and Macintosh development is far more complex than you have asserted. Your facts are in error and your timeline is off by a couple years. [1] https://www.apple2history.org/appendix/ahb/ahb2/ https://www.apple2history.org/appendix/ahb/ahb2/ [2] https://www.thoughtco.com/who-invented-the-macintosh-4072884 https://www.thoughtco.com/who-invented-the-macintosh-4072884 [3] https://web.stanford.edu/dept/SUL/sites/mac/earlymac.html https://web.stanford.edu/dept/SUL/sites/mac/earlymac.html [4] https://history-computer.com/macintosh-by-apple-complete-history-of-mac-computers/ https://history-computer.com/macintosh-by-apple-complete-his... [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_(computer)#1979–1996:_%22Macintosh%22_era https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_(computer)#1979–1996:_%22M...

AlbertCory 4y ago

> Lisa which arguably began the day Apple visited Xerox Parc to demo Alto "arguably" doing a lot of work here. Your argument is wrong. Lisa was already underway then. His statements are well-grounded and correct, while you apparently just read a couple articles.

Maursault 3y ago
> Lisa was already underway then. It really wasn't. While technically the project slightly predated Apple's visit to Xerox Parc, that demo drastically changed the the project's direction and goals to produce a product entirely unlike initially conceived, which was effectively an Apple ][ geared towards business, but to claim it was "underway" is false. > while you apparently just read a couple articles. This is an ad hominem argument. And his statements are false as I have proven with supported citation in another comment. Just a friendly suggestion, but if you can not tolerate criticism in any form, and are sensitive about acknowledging mistakes, immediately going on the offensive compelled to make personal attacks out of a sensitivity to pride, which is no virtue, and I am saying IF (I don't know you), then this behavior is classifiable clinically and often solvable through therapy. These symptoms in and of themselves aren't really the problem, it's the other symptoms, that go along with them, which causes those you care about to suffer, that are.
- AlbertCory 3y ago
  OK, you need to calm down & then go away. Let's review: 1) first of all, you make this unwarranted dig: "Did you correspond with him, or merely make it into his spam folder?" No apology. 2) then you just say "false" and let someone explain what they think you meant. No apology. 3) then you say "a misguided attempt to be relevant, or you are simply trying to cover up your mistake in insinuating Mac owes something to Star." No apology for the projection about an "insinuation" which is entirely in your own mind. Or for the "attempt to be relevant" which is an insult. 4) and then this: "just a friendly suggestion, but if you can not tolerate criticism in any form, and are sensitive about acknowledging mistakes, immediately going on the offensive compelled to make personal attacks out of a sensitivity to pride, which is no virtue, and I am saying IF (I don't know you), then this behavior is classifiable clinically and often solvable through therapy" You are nothing more than an Internet troll. We're done here.
  - Maursault 3y ago
    That you are apparently easily offended and paranoid that you have been attacked are two more symptoms. I am not responsible for your emotions. For the sake of those you care about, get evaluated and seek treatment. It is easy, cheap, non-invasive, drug free, and enjoyable, and I assure you that you'll never regret that you did. Your next emotion is going to be denial, which I'm afraid is also a symptom. If you won't seek treatment, then please consider that your pride is not a virtue. Its exact opposite, humility, is the virtue.

retrocryptid 4y ago

The line is sometime after early 1981, when Jobs took over the Macintosh project from Jef Raskin. Mac development did not start with the Lisa, Lisa development started with the Lisa. The Mac and the Lisa are distinct products and projects. It's kind of funny you're saying I'm putting up a strawman. But... whatever. If Mac development started with the Alto in the early 70s or the Lisa in the late 70s, then shouldn't we also say Mac development started with PDP development in the 60s that influenced the design of the 74181 chips used in the Alto? No. Because that's silly. A project starts when the project starts and the project starters elucidate an objective. When the Alto launched, no one said "hey, let's build this computer that will one day become a small desktop computer for another company." They build the Alto for their own reasons. When the Lisa project started, it's objective was to build a "modern" system at Apple. When the Macintosh project started in 1980, it was intended to build an inexpensive, keyboard-based, non-expandable 6809-based system as a follow-on to the Apple ][. In '81 when Jobs took over the Macintosh project he added features from the Lisa (mouse, bit-mapped display, proportional fonts, WIMP) but Apple didn't cancel the Lisa and say "The Lisa is now the Macintosh." They were considered separate products targeting different markets. Which is why in the original Macintosh business plan it says "The Lisa is a different product than the Macintosh and has a different target market."

AlbertCory 4y ago
You know your stuff. Maursault does not.
Maursault 3y ago
> The line is sometime after early 1981 FALSE. "1979 March Jef Raskin proposes the original Macintosh project to Mike Markkula..... 1979 September Macintosh project formally begins, although some preliminary work was done as early as late 1978." [1] "The early Mac team members in 1979 consisted of Jef Raskin, Brian Howard, Marc LeBrun, Burrell Smith, Joanna Hoffman, and Bud Tribble."[2] "The former head of publications and quality assurance at Apple, Raskin had proposed the project to Mike Markkula in 1979."[3] "The Macintosh project started in the late 1970s with Jef Raskin.... In September 1979, Raskin was authorized by the management to start hiring for the project, and he began to look for an engineer who could put together a prototype.[4] "Parallel to the Lisa's development, a skunkworks team at Apple was working on another project. Conceived in 1979* by Jef Raskin, the Macintosh was envisioned as an affordable, easy-to-use computer for the masses, with the Lisa's graphical interface."[5] Raskin started hiring for the Macintosh Project, and it began in earnest, in name, and in an official capacity at Apple nearly a full two years before Jobs took over the project and three months before Apple famously visited Xerox Parc. And Jef Raskin was far more contributive to the development of Macintosh than Steve Jobs, who took the project over in the late middle of its development with only a stark handful of changes, requirements and specifications. Nevertheless, development of Macintosh was intimately intertwined with that Xerox's demo of Alto and the co-development of Lisa at Apple. For example, all of the early Macintosh software was developed on Lisa, and they both shared the same product design language. The Lisa was ultimately rebranded as a Macintosh XL before it was cancelled. The development lines are clearly blurred and Macintosh development is far more complex than you have asserted. Your facts are in error and your timeline is off by a couple years. [1] https://www.apple2history.org/appendix/ahb/ahb2/ https://www.apple2history.org/appendix/ahb/ahb2/ [2] https://www.thoughtco.com/who-invented-the-macintosh-4072884 https://www.thoughtco.com/who-invented-the-macintosh-4072884 [3] https://web.stanford.edu/dept/SUL/sites/mac/earlymac.html https://web.stanford.edu/dept/SUL/sites/mac/earlymac.html [4] https://history-computer.com/macintosh-by-apple-complete-history-of-mac-computers/ https://history-computer.com/macintosh-by-apple-complete-his... [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_(computer)#1979–1996:_%22Macintosh%22_era https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_(computer)#1979–1996:_%22M...