5 ms·

That's because the memory of truly oppressive governments in Western Europe has faded. People who don't remember history, are doomed to repeat it.

by toyg 4y ago

pengaru 4y ago
I wonder if Berlin's society is already atrophying in this department.
- toyg 4y ago
  Germans are actually the most inoculated against that type of virus, they will be the last to fall. They are at the forefront of anti-authoritarian efforts in technology, for example. US/UK/France, on the other hand...
  - P_I_Staker 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - dang 4y ago
      Yikes and whoa - you can't post this sort of nationalistic flamebait here. We ban accounts that do; it's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. We had to warn you recently about breaking the site rules like this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34887271 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34887271. I don't want to ban you because you've also posted good comments - so would you please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules from now on? We'd be grateful.
      - P_I_Staker 4y ago
        You may have a point about this one (the German one), but the comment about this site and silicon valley in general is vital feedback. This website is constantly in dire need of self reflection. We should be up in arms seeing people on this site patting themselves on their back so smugly. It's truly disgusting, and incredibly harmful to the fabric of society. There may be fine line to walk here, but I don't think I do well to sugar coat it... there's a reason I have quite a few upvotes for that comment, a bit more than I'm used to seeing. Others are also concerned and frustrated by this privileged rhetoric. Regarding Germany, yeah I may have gotten carried away towards the end of this comment. I could have given more reasoning or left out the part daring people to downvote or flag my comment. On the other hand, having recently visited Germany, I was very unimpressed. Their society has changed and is less prone the horrors of the 20th century, but culturally still very vulnerable to totalitarianism. I'm really torn now, because I'm not sure it's unfair to say it oozes from their pores. They have massive issues with intolerance, racism, and able-ism to this day. Honestly, it somehow seemed worse in certain ways to the USA. This stuff should be talked about. People should not believe the myth that German fascism is a thing of the past, that has been overcome.
        dang 4y ago
        Sorry, but https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34854191 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34854191 is in no way "vital feedback". That's just name-calling and fulmination of exactly the sort that HN accounts are asked not to post. People who go in for flamey rhetoric often imagine that they're providing "vital feedback" to whatever they're flaming against but this is just a rationalization. Comments like that are extremely common and the only effect they have is to inflame and degrade discussion. If you keep posting like that, we're going to have to ban you. If you want to post some sort of substantive and thoughtful critique, that's of course fine. (Btw, the vast majority of this community (over 90%, last time I checked) is nowhere near Silicon Valley. Commenters here often have unrealistic images of who they're talking to.)
        P_I_Staker 4y ago
        Yet people on this site are desperate to defend SV and put it on a pedestal, which is the problem. It wasn't flamebate at all, I'm not rationalizing bad behavior. What I said was 100% fine, except the part about getting flagged. I just said they were entitled. I did call them jerkoffs, but they consider themselves the "most impactful people on the planet", so that's fair. Even if that poster isn't from SV, this is a common attitude you hear from people in the area, on a site about the area. It doesn't matter that most commenters aren't from SV. This in no way degrades discussion. Your response is filled with fallacies. Do both of us a favor and save your chastising. If you want to ban me for arguing with you go ahead. I don't really post comments like this very often and you can ban if you don't like what I say in the future. There's no need to talk down to me. This is wasted energy.
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
  - cscurmudgeon 4y ago
    Wasn't Germany actively supporting Russia despite US warnings before the Ukraine war? https://elamerican.com/germany-mocked-trump-dependence-on-russian-energy/ https://elamerican.com/germany-mocked-trump-dependence-on-ru...
    - midoridensha 4y ago
      They were supporting Russia economically by purchasing energy (gas mainly) from them. They basically had the crazy idea that economically intertwining themselves with Russia and making themselves dependent on Russia would magically turn Russia into a modern, democratic European nation, basically "if we bring them into our club, they'll come around to our way of thinking". It didn't work, just like economically integrating with China hasn't turned China into a western-like nation either, it's only enabled the authoritarians.
  - account42 4y ago
    The fuck are you basing this on.
andy_ppp 4y ago
I do wonder if the masses always end up voting in fascists every 50 years or so simply because they forgot that there were some things worth fighting for. Does it feel like to anyone else we are on the precipice of extremely big changes that might not be good for anyone?
- robswc 4y ago
  I think this is a big part of it. I remember growing up reading Harrison Bergeron (in school) and always thinking there's no way such a system would ever come about by the will of the people... yet SF proves people are all too happy to implement such a system (tearing down gifted students for the perceived benefit of everyone else). SSDD.
  - vkou 4y ago
    Of all the insane, repressive and straight-up authoritarian systems in the United States today, you picked... A failed pilot for middle-school algebra in SF?
    - cscurmudgeon 4y ago
      It wasn't just a failed pilot: It was a pilot which prevented advanced students from taking algebra. Lines up with Harrison Bergeron perfectly. And on top of it they claimed it was a success as failure rates went down. The failure rate went down because nobody was being tested. https://www.joannejacobs.com/post/algebra-for-none-fails-in-san-francisco https://www.joannejacobs.com/post/algebra-for-none-fails-in-... > The district had bragged that algebra failure rates had dropped. Families for San Francisco, a parent group, analyzed the data: Failure rates dropped after the district dropped the end-of-course exam.
- Loughla 4y ago
  I don't think it's forgetting that some things are worth fighting for. I think it's that, after a fascist government is ousted via violence, people spend so much time and effort to demonize them, that Joe Blow on the street doesn't see them as 'Us' anymore. We would never make decisions like They made, so We don't have to worry if Our leader is a fascist. Our leader is nothing like Their leader was, other than in absolute power. Our leader has our best interests in mind. Their leader was just a power hungry madman. When we remove the humanity from the monsters, we fail to remember that we could be monsters, too.
cm2187 4y ago
The absence of a strong constitution protecting fundamental rights is also an issue. With a 50%+1 majority, the house of commons can vote pretty much any law it wants with no counterpower.
- toyg 4y ago
  The British system is, indeed, fundamentally insane, from a technical perspective. They nerfed aristocratic power by neutering the House of Lords, but didn't bother replacing it with some other check or balance, leaving the Commons all-powerful - and with an electoral system that disproportionately favours cohesive ideologic minorities. Ironically, this was largely done by self-declared leftists, who utterly failed to anticipate how fascism could easily manifest through such a system.
  - orra 4y ago
    > Ironically, this was largely done by self-declared leftists Eh, the Parliament Act 1911 was passed by a Liberal Government. > who utterly failed to anticipate how fascism could easily manifest through such a system. The Liberal Party, and its successor the Liberal Democrats, has long been in favour of electoral reform.
    - blibble 4y ago
      and the RIP Act was passed by a Labour government (and the Terrorism Act)
      - kevviiinn 4y ago
        From what I've heard, the UK Labour party does absolutely nothing for labor. They're turning into the US democrats
        toyg 4y ago
        It's not that "they're turning", it already happened. Tony Blair and Bill Clinton shared political platforms almost precisely. A recent effort to go "back to their roots" (the Corbyn years) ended with a stalinesque purge of such leader. Sadly this leaves free reign for upstart neonazi and neonazi-adjacent parties (BNP, UKIP, Brexit Party/Reform UK...) to rip through traditional Lab heartlands.
zamnos 4y ago
Ah! Not to worry, those who do remember history are doomed to watch others repeat it, so I think it's a bit of a wash in the end.

That's because the memory of truly oppressive governments in Western Europe has faded. People who don't remember history, are doomed to repeat it.

by toyg 4y ago

That's because the memory of truly oppressive governments in Western Europe has faded. People who don't remember history, are doomed to repeat it.

pengaru 4y ago

I wonder if Berlin's society is already atrophying in this department.

toyg 4y ago
Germans are actually the most inoculated against that type of virus, they will be the last to fall. They are at the forefront of anti-authoritarian efforts in technology, for example. US/UK/France, on the other hand...
- P_I_Staker 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - dang 4y ago
    Yikes and whoa - you can't post this sort of nationalistic flamebait here. We ban accounts that do; it's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. We had to warn you recently about breaking the site rules like this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34887271 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34887271. I don't want to ban you because you've also posted good comments - so would you please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules from now on? We'd be grateful.
    - P_I_Staker 4y ago
      You may have a point about this one (the German one), but the comment about this site and silicon valley in general is vital feedback. This website is constantly in dire need of self reflection. We should be up in arms seeing people on this site patting themselves on their back so smugly. It's truly disgusting, and incredibly harmful to the fabric of society. There may be fine line to walk here, but I don't think I do well to sugar coat it... there's a reason I have quite a few upvotes for that comment, a bit more than I'm used to seeing. Others are also concerned and frustrated by this privileged rhetoric. Regarding Germany, yeah I may have gotten carried away towards the end of this comment. I could have given more reasoning or left out the part daring people to downvote or flag my comment. On the other hand, having recently visited Germany, I was very unimpressed. Their society has changed and is less prone the horrors of the 20th century, but culturally still very vulnerable to totalitarianism. I'm really torn now, because I'm not sure it's unfair to say it oozes from their pores. They have massive issues with intolerance, racism, and able-ism to this day. Honestly, it somehow seemed worse in certain ways to the USA. This stuff should be talked about. People should not believe the myth that German fascism is a thing of the past, that has been overcome.
      - dang 4y ago
        Sorry, but https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34854191 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34854191 is in no way "vital feedback". That's just name-calling and fulmination of exactly the sort that HN accounts are asked not to post. People who go in for flamey rhetoric often imagine that they're providing "vital feedback" to whatever they're flaming against but this is just a rationalization. Comments like that are extremely common and the only effect they have is to inflame and degrade discussion. If you keep posting like that, we're going to have to ban you. If you want to post some sort of substantive and thoughtful critique, that's of course fine. (Btw, the vast majority of this community (over 90%, last time I checked) is nowhere near Silicon Valley. Commenters here often have unrealistic images of who they're talking to.)
        P_I_Staker 4y ago
        Yet people on this site are desperate to defend SV and put it on a pedestal, which is the problem. It wasn't flamebate at all, I'm not rationalizing bad behavior. What I said was 100% fine, except the part about getting flagged. I just said they were entitled. I did call them jerkoffs, but they consider themselves the "most impactful people on the planet", so that's fair. Even if that poster isn't from SV, this is a common attitude you hear from people in the area, on a site about the area. It doesn't matter that most commenters aren't from SV. This in no way degrades discussion. Your response is filled with fallacies. Do both of us a favor and save your chastising. If you want to ban me for arguing with you go ahead. I don't really post comments like this very often and you can ban if you don't like what I say in the future. There's no need to talk down to me. This is wasted energy.
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
- cscurmudgeon 4y ago
  Wasn't Germany actively supporting Russia despite US warnings before the Ukraine war? https://elamerican.com/germany-mocked-trump-dependence-on-russian-energy/ https://elamerican.com/germany-mocked-trump-dependence-on-ru...
  - midoridensha 4y ago
    They were supporting Russia economically by purchasing energy (gas mainly) from them. They basically had the crazy idea that economically intertwining themselves with Russia and making themselves dependent on Russia would magically turn Russia into a modern, democratic European nation, basically "if we bring them into our club, they'll come around to our way of thinking". It didn't work, just like economically integrating with China hasn't turned China into a western-like nation either, it's only enabled the authoritarians.
- account42 4y ago
  The fuck are you basing this on.

andy_ppp 4y ago

I do wonder if the masses always end up voting in fascists every 50 years or so simply because they forgot that there were some things worth fighting for. Does it feel like to anyone else we are on the precipice of extremely big changes that might not be good for anyone?

robswc 4y ago
I think this is a big part of it. I remember growing up reading Harrison Bergeron (in school) and always thinking there's no way such a system would ever come about by the will of the people... yet SF proves people are all too happy to implement such a system (tearing down gifted students for the perceived benefit of everyone else). SSDD.
- vkou 4y ago
  Of all the insane, repressive and straight-up authoritarian systems in the United States today, you picked... A failed pilot for middle-school algebra in SF?
  - cscurmudgeon 4y ago
    It wasn't just a failed pilot: It was a pilot which prevented advanced students from taking algebra. Lines up with Harrison Bergeron perfectly. And on top of it they claimed it was a success as failure rates went down. The failure rate went down because nobody was being tested. https://www.joannejacobs.com/post/algebra-for-none-fails-in-san-francisco https://www.joannejacobs.com/post/algebra-for-none-fails-in-... > The district had bragged that algebra failure rates had dropped. Families for San Francisco, a parent group, analyzed the data: Failure rates dropped after the district dropped the end-of-course exam.
Loughla 4y ago
I don't think it's forgetting that some things are worth fighting for. I think it's that, after a fascist government is ousted via violence, people spend so much time and effort to demonize them, that Joe Blow on the street doesn't see them as 'Us' anymore. We would never make decisions like They made, so We don't have to worry if Our leader is a fascist. Our leader is nothing like Their leader was, other than in absolute power. Our leader has our best interests in mind. Their leader was just a power hungry madman. When we remove the humanity from the monsters, we fail to remember that we could be monsters, too.

cm2187 4y ago

The absence of a strong constitution protecting fundamental rights is also an issue. With a 50%+1 majority, the house of commons can vote pretty much any law it wants with no counterpower.

toyg 4y ago
The British system is, indeed, fundamentally insane, from a technical perspective. They nerfed aristocratic power by neutering the House of Lords, but didn't bother replacing it with some other check or balance, leaving the Commons all-powerful - and with an electoral system that disproportionately favours cohesive ideologic minorities. Ironically, this was largely done by self-declared leftists, who utterly failed to anticipate how fascism could easily manifest through such a system.
- orra 4y ago
  > Ironically, this was largely done by self-declared leftists Eh, the Parliament Act 1911 was passed by a Liberal Government. > who utterly failed to anticipate how fascism could easily manifest through such a system. The Liberal Party, and its successor the Liberal Democrats, has long been in favour of electoral reform.
  - blibble 4y ago
    and the RIP Act was passed by a Labour government (and the Terrorism Act)
    - kevviiinn 4y ago
      From what I've heard, the UK Labour party does absolutely nothing for labor. They're turning into the US democrats
      - toyg 4y ago
        It's not that "they're turning", it already happened. Tony Blair and Bill Clinton shared political platforms almost precisely. A recent effort to go "back to their roots" (the Corbyn years) ended with a stalinesque purge of such leader. Sadly this leaves free reign for upstart neonazi and neonazi-adjacent parties (BNP, UKIP, Brexit Party/Reform UK...) to rip through traditional Lab heartlands.

zamnos 4y ago

Ah! Not to worry, those who do remember history are doomed to watch others repeat it, so I think it's a bit of a wash in the end.