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What would a welder do that isn't research or development? I believe for both jobs certain tasks are journeyman-like, but others are legit R&D. I don't think so

What would a welder do that isn't research or development? I believe for both jobs certain tasks are journeyman-like, but others are legit R&D. I don't think software ought to be blanket-exempted because its done on a computer. Here's the IRS' guidance on software: https://www.irs.gov/businesses/audit-guidelines-on-the-application-of-the-process-of-experimentation-for-all-software https://www.irs.gov/businesses/audit-guidelines-on-the-appli...

TylerE 4y ago
> What would a welder do that isn't research or development? Weld stuff?
- jdmichal 4y ago
  Isn't welding just "developing" metal products? That's why you have to take into account that it's "research and development", and not "research" and "development". As in research and the development of that research, not separately research and development.
  - function_seven 4y ago
    Yeah, forcing physical-world norms into technology will always result in weird shit like this. For the "real" world, Research would be studying different compounds to see which ones work well as anode or cathode. Development would be creating the industrial processes required to scale up manufacturing, or the ancillary infrastructure to support the new battery, or designing a new package for this awesome new cell. All the things that take the new thing from the lab to a marketable product. So if you come up with a new method for welding ("My new filler alloy reduces argon requirements by half!" or "My new pulsing methodology results in 23% stronger welds between dissimilar alloys.") That's Research. Then the Development of that might be "How do we manufacture these new filler rods to the exacting specs required?" or "We need to have the EE people incorporate my pulsing algo in our welders. Right now it's running on an Arduino in the lab, we need it included in next year's Welder XL4000 model." Actually doing the weld is just doing the job. So, back to software. What kind of coding is considered R&D and what is considered "just doing the job"? I guess creating new algorithms, or new features that you expect to be in the product for years to come; those would be R&D. Whereas fixing bugs, working on Kubernetes stuff, writing database backup routines, etc. would not be? I don't know. This is just my impression of the difference. I'm no economist.
    - 908B64B197 4y ago
      > So, back to software. What kind of coding is considered R&D and what is considered "just doing the job"? I guess creating new algorithms, or new features that you expect to be in the product for years to come; those would be R&D. Whereas fixing bugs, working on Kubernetes stuff, writing database backup routines, etc. would not be? I would still count the later as R&D. It's akin to having an industrial engineer re-design the manufacturing floor to accommodate for the different manufacturing process of the anodes. As soon as you need to customize something, it becomes R&D (else you would have purchased it). The "just the job" part is invisible because, well, it's the machine who's doing it (applications auto-start, install, send updates).
- hellojesus 4y ago
  Welding stuff is developing a product. Basically the same thing software developers do. It seems like a nonsense differentiation if those are categorized differently for taxes.
  - TylerE 4y ago
    As some one who took a welding class.. no it isn’t. It’s production.
    - bluGill 4y ago
      It can be development, if you are building a prototype for example. a good welder will notice that a bracket is missing and design one one the spot so the whole can be built for now - while telling the engineers about the problem. That is a small % of welding though. Most is just straight production work. The % is open to question - if I ask you to put a winch mount on my trailer how much of that is custom R&D, and how much is production of the one off product?
      - maxerickson 4y ago
        If you have an off the shelf solution, then close to 0 development. If you have a clear, standard approach to the installation, then the development is likely to be a small portion of the work. If neither of those are true then you are in the hard to figure area.
        ikekkdcjkfke 4y ago
        A carpenter building a custom solution for room x A programmer building a custom abstraction for domain feature x A plumber laying a new line from the basement to the second floor All require some surveying and development of a solution, gluing existing parts together in a unique way
        maxerickson 4y ago
        Sure, I agree, but there are likely standard approaches, especially in the older trades, where the development is making ~1 decision and then measuring. Like if the carpenter is installing some shelves, they are most likely picking a shelving system or approach they know how to work with and measuring for fit, not coming up with a brand new way to mount shelves. They might come up with a new way, it just isn't all that likely.

TylerE 4y ago

> What would a welder do that isn't research or development? Weld stuff?

jdmichal 4y ago
Isn't welding just "developing" metal products? That's why you have to take into account that it's "research and development", and not "research" and "development". As in research and the development of that research, not separately research and development.
- function_seven 4y ago
  Yeah, forcing physical-world norms into technology will always result in weird shit like this. For the "real" world, Research would be studying different compounds to see which ones work well as anode or cathode. Development would be creating the industrial processes required to scale up manufacturing, or the ancillary infrastructure to support the new battery, or designing a new package for this awesome new cell. All the things that take the new thing from the lab to a marketable product. So if you come up with a new method for welding ("My new filler alloy reduces argon requirements by half!" or "My new pulsing methodology results in 23% stronger welds between dissimilar alloys.") That's Research. Then the Development of that might be "How do we manufacture these new filler rods to the exacting specs required?" or "We need to have the EE people incorporate my pulsing algo in our welders. Right now it's running on an Arduino in the lab, we need it included in next year's Welder XL4000 model." Actually doing the weld is just doing the job. So, back to software. What kind of coding is considered R&D and what is considered "just doing the job"? I guess creating new algorithms, or new features that you expect to be in the product for years to come; those would be R&D. Whereas fixing bugs, working on Kubernetes stuff, writing database backup routines, etc. would not be? I don't know. This is just my impression of the difference. I'm no economist.
  - 908B64B197 4y ago
    > So, back to software. What kind of coding is considered R&D and what is considered "just doing the job"? I guess creating new algorithms, or new features that you expect to be in the product for years to come; those would be R&D. Whereas fixing bugs, working on Kubernetes stuff, writing database backup routines, etc. would not be? I would still count the later as R&D. It's akin to having an industrial engineer re-design the manufacturing floor to accommodate for the different manufacturing process of the anodes. As soon as you need to customize something, it becomes R&D (else you would have purchased it). The "just the job" part is invisible because, well, it's the machine who's doing it (applications auto-start, install, send updates).
hellojesus 4y ago
Welding stuff is developing a product. Basically the same thing software developers do. It seems like a nonsense differentiation if those are categorized differently for taxes.
- TylerE 4y ago
  As some one who took a welding class.. no it isn’t. It’s production.
  - bluGill 4y ago
    It can be development, if you are building a prototype for example. a good welder will notice that a bracket is missing and design one one the spot so the whole can be built for now - while telling the engineers about the problem. That is a small % of welding though. Most is just straight production work. The % is open to question - if I ask you to put a winch mount on my trailer how much of that is custom R&D, and how much is production of the one off product?
    - maxerickson 4y ago
      If you have an off the shelf solution, then close to 0 development. If you have a clear, standard approach to the installation, then the development is likely to be a small portion of the work. If neither of those are true then you are in the hard to figure area.
      - ikekkdcjkfke 4y ago
        A carpenter building a custom solution for room x A programmer building a custom abstraction for domain feature x A plumber laying a new line from the basement to the second floor All require some surveying and development of a solution, gluing existing parts together in a unique way
        maxerickson 4y ago
        Sure, I agree, but there are likely standard approaches, especially in the older trades, where the development is making ~1 decision and then measuring. Like if the carpenter is installing some shelves, they are most likely picking a shelving system or approach they know how to work with and measuring for fit, not coming up with a brand new way to mount shelves. They might come up with a new way, it just isn't all that likely.