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> “The Reddit corpus of data is really valuable,” Totally agree, no question about that. But data comes from users. Shouldn't they also get paid?

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
0xDEF 4y ago
Reddit has been experimenting with both fiat and Ethereum based approaches to compensate users. But we are talking about cents.
ChuckNorris89 4y ago
Exactly. Users who contribute to the community of a for-profit enterprise that monetizes their contribution should also get paid. I remember the good ol' days before reddit, where every community had its own forum, ran for the community, not for profit. Sure, they were running some ads to keep the lights on, but those were non targeted ads, just generic stuff based on the community. With Dpreview dying along with so many other forums that used to serve various communities on the decline, Reddit becoming the one-stop-shop for all communities is the worst possible outcome.
- unglaublich 4y ago
  They are getting paid: in the form of a discount on the cost for using the platform.
  - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
    What's the cost of using the platform?
    - Dracophoenix 4y ago
      Whatever it takes to pay for servers, software engineers, and security teams divided by however many people are using with in a given time period.
      - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
        I meant costs for their users. Reddit are covering their costs through ads and VC money. The users are creating the content on their platform that attracts more users. The users are the value to reddit.
stagger87 4y ago
Does that follow? Who owns the data?
jimmytucson 4y ago
Something tells me users would have mixed reactions to monetizing karma, even if Reddit would support it.
waselighis 4y ago
Please no. I wish the users who create quality posts could get paid. But sadly, once money is involved, people will start to gamify the system, posting as much barely-passable garbage as possible to maximize upvotes, and the quality of content will deteriorate very quickly.
- RealityVoid 4y ago
  It is extremely interesting that money fails so hard at the one thing it should be good at, incentivizing behavior. I mean, yes, you'd get more content, but it would be hollow, as you say.
  - BobbyJo 4y ago
    Money is a fantastic motivator, as evidence by how quickly flaws in systems are gamed in order to attain it. It's not money that's failing, it's the rule-masters. Agents can't work well in systems with bad rules.
    - anigbrowl 4y ago
      No, it's money. Because the rule-masters you complain about are just optimizing for more money.
      - BobbyJo 4y ago
        Sounds like a good motivator if even the rule-masters are chasing it.
        anigbrowl 4y ago
        It can be a good motivator and till be failing to serve any greater social purpose. People and organizations can get addicted to money exactly the same as people get addicted to sugar, nicotine, or cocaine. Addicts can be enormously tenacious, creative, and resourceful, but only to the end of feeding their addiction.
bugglebeetle 4y ago
There would be far less objections to generative AI if these tools were being harnessed by (for example) social democracies to make societies overall more efficient and productive and to redistribute gains into greater overall security. What HN users tend to summarily dismiss as Luddism is the “golden rule” form of American Capitalism, where having the most money/compute resources entitles you to scrape and enclose the sum total of human creative and intellectual output for corporate gain. It’s the basic conflict of Capitalism - what gains should be returned to labor vs Capital owners, sublimated through a whole mess of pedantry, philosophizing, and cynical legal maneuvering to obfuscate that fact.
Tuna-Fish 4y ago
Not according to the Reddit user agreement: https://www.redditinc.com/policies/user-agreement https://www.redditinc.com/policies/user-agreement > When Your Content is created with or submitted to the Services, you grant us a worldwide, royalty-free, perpetual, irrevocable, non-exclusive, transferable, and sublicensable license to use, copy, modify, adapt, prepare derivative works of, distribute, store, perform, and display Your Content and any name, username, voice, or likeness provided in connection with Your Content in all media formats and channels now known or later developed anywhere in the world. This license includes the right for us to make Your Content available for syndication, broadcast, distribution, or publication by other companies, organizations, or individuals who partner with Reddit. You also agree that we may remove metadata associated with Your Content, and you irrevocably waive any claims and assertions of moral rights or attribution with respect to Your Content.
- dogleash 4y ago
  Parent posted asked a "shouldn't they" question, not a "legally must they" question.
  - janalsncm 4y ago
    Thank you for saying this. It’s a classic appeal to the law fallacy I see so often online.
- ohgodplsno 4y ago
  The Reddit user agreement is written based on US law and would be laughed out of any court in half the world. I literally _cannot_ waive my moral rights, and any company doing that is breaking the law in my country.
SkipperCat 4y ago
Users may not get paid, but they do get free access to one of the best moderated community web sites on the planet. I get hours of enjoyment and engagement from Reddit. Totally worth it for me. Of course YMMV...
bheadmaster 4y ago
Hopefully at least moderators will get paid, and finally be held accountable for their moderation. Powertripping basement dwellers who ban anyone who refuses to worship their supreme authority are one of the worse aspects of Reddit.
- eppp 4y ago
  I don't understand this attitude. If you don't like how someone mods their subreddit then why do you want to be part of it in the first place? You can make your own and run it how you please.
  - evandale 4y ago
    You really can't make your own if you're going up against an established subreddit. This applies doubly so if it's an established region based subreddit i.e. city, state, province, or country, and IMO these are the most problematic subreddits for overmoderation. Finding non-partisan regional subreddits is damn near impossible.
    - MichaelZuo 4y ago
      There's two popular NYC subreddits. If two, why not three?
    - eppp 4y ago
      But then people complain about getting banned from the said subreddit for not following the rules that make it what it is. It seems like you want to engage an already established community and just ignore the people that are currently there and play by the existing rules.
      - bheadmaster 4y ago
        > people complain about getting banned from the said subreddit for not following the rules That's not at all what I'm saying. There are a few subreddits with fair mods who enforce the rules fairly, but the great majority doesn't - they are the rules, and if they don't like you, tough tiddies. Making it effectively a "mod and minions", not a real community with real rules.
jart 4y ago
What's good for Reddit is ultimately going to be good for Reddit users.
simion314 4y ago
The models should be open source because they used open source data to create them, or scrapped content without an explicit granted permission.
than3 4y ago
Not really, you have so much garbage mixed in from troll-bots.
tonystubblebine 4y ago
FWIW, we at Medium feel pretty similarly to Reddit but with a yes to this question about whether authors should get paid. AI companies are betraying basic business principles: they are taking value from datasets like Reddit and Medium without giving any value back. Fine if you can get away with it. But since AI, especially text based LLMs, relies on source material, it's pretty straightforward for the platforms that host that source material to deny access. Things like ChatGPT do need current source material. I don't think it'll come to a war though and that the AI companies will instead give some value back. It could be as simple as citations that send traffic back. That's essentially the exchange of value that we all have with Google these days. But if it's money, then I think the obligation is for platforms to pass that on the authors. It'd be hard for an individual author to negotiate this on their own with a company like OpenAI, but platforms are in a good position to negotiate on their behalf.
- datavirtue 4y ago
  The content is public. Internet companies are staring to sound like Disney. The AI is definitely giving value back.
  - nicbou 4y ago
    It’s public for humans, not for other businesses stealing it for their own profit. I don’t want to be an anymous contributor to an AI.
    - rootusrootus 4y ago
      Another in a really long list of issues that need a clear differentiation between human consumption and machines. So many things that were innocuous or even useful before the age of ubiquitous cameras, other sensors, and computers, are now a big problem.
- balls187 4y ago
  As an end user I get a lot of value from AI companies. I’m curious how a content platforms TOS will matchup against a Search Engine’s webcrawler TOS. “I want people to find and access my content, but I own it.” vs “I will send people to your content, but any public data I can access, I can store and process how I want.”
jasonlotito 4y ago
There is already a compensation system setup for ugc. Users are already free to evaluate what they share on Reddit for what they get in return. But users have effectively been compensated for providing their content.
makestuff 4y ago
A startup actually messaged me a few months ago that is trying to do something similar to that. Basically you get paid for your ad targeting data.
janalsncm 4y ago
Moderators should, in my opinion. They’re doing a ton of the thankless janitorial work of cleaning up Reddit’s walled garden. If Reddit mods quit for a week Reddit wouldn’t have a product.
Entinel 4y ago
I would say no to this. Reddit is giving you a platform and in exchange they get the content. If you don't think that is fair deal you're free to just not make the content.
markdown 4y ago
As a Reddit addict who's spent thousands of hours on the website, I feel I am very well compensated for my content. For every post and comment I give to Reddit, Reddit serves me millions of posts and comments in return. This has massive entertainment and educational value to me, so I consider it a very favourable trade.
yreg 4y ago
And yet it's going to be the other way around, since now we, the users are going to have to pay for the API to use a usable app.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

0xDEF 4y ago

Reddit has been experimenting with both fiat and Ethereum based approaches to compensate users. But we are talking about cents.

ChuckNorris89 4y ago

Exactly. Users who contribute to the community of a for-profit enterprise that monetizes their contribution should also get paid. I remember the good ol' days before reddit, where every community had its own forum, ran for the community, not for profit. Sure, they were running some ads to keep the lights on, but those were non targeted ads, just generic stuff based on the community. With Dpreview dying along with so many other forums that used to serve various communities on the decline, Reddit becoming the one-stop-shop for all communities is the worst possible outcome.

unglaublich 4y ago
They are getting paid: in the form of a discount on the cost for using the platform.
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  What's the cost of using the platform?
  - Dracophoenix 4y ago
    Whatever it takes to pay for servers, software engineers, and security teams divided by however many people are using with in a given time period.
    - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
      I meant costs for their users. Reddit are covering their costs through ads and VC money. The users are creating the content on their platform that attracts more users. The users are the value to reddit.

stagger87 4y ago

Does that follow? Who owns the data?

jimmytucson 4y ago

Something tells me users would have mixed reactions to monetizing karma, even if Reddit would support it.

waselighis 4y ago

Please no. I wish the users who create quality posts could get paid. But sadly, once money is involved, people will start to gamify the system, posting as much barely-passable garbage as possible to maximize upvotes, and the quality of content will deteriorate very quickly.

RealityVoid 4y ago
It is extremely interesting that money fails so hard at the one thing it should be good at, incentivizing behavior. I mean, yes, you'd get more content, but it would be hollow, as you say.
- BobbyJo 4y ago
  Money is a fantastic motivator, as evidence by how quickly flaws in systems are gamed in order to attain it. It's not money that's failing, it's the rule-masters. Agents can't work well in systems with bad rules.
  - anigbrowl 4y ago
    No, it's money. Because the rule-masters you complain about are just optimizing for more money.
    - BobbyJo 4y ago
      Sounds like a good motivator if even the rule-masters are chasing it.
      - anigbrowl 4y ago
        It can be a good motivator and till be failing to serve any greater social purpose. People and organizations can get addicted to money exactly the same as people get addicted to sugar, nicotine, or cocaine. Addicts can be enormously tenacious, creative, and resourceful, but only to the end of feeding their addiction.

bugglebeetle 4y ago

There would be far less objections to generative AI if these tools were being harnessed by (for example) social democracies to make societies overall more efficient and productive and to redistribute gains into greater overall security. What HN users tend to summarily dismiss as Luddism is the “golden rule” form of American Capitalism, where having the most money/compute resources entitles you to scrape and enclose the sum total of human creative and intellectual output for corporate gain. It’s the basic conflict of Capitalism - what gains should be returned to labor vs Capital owners, sublimated through a whole mess of pedantry, philosophizing, and cynical legal maneuvering to obfuscate that fact.

Tuna-Fish 4y ago

Not according to the Reddit user agreement: https://www.redditinc.com/policies/user-agreement https://www.redditinc.com/policies/user-agreement > When Your Content is created with or submitted to the Services, you grant us a worldwide, royalty-free, perpetual, irrevocable, non-exclusive, transferable, and sublicensable license to use, copy, modify, adapt, prepare derivative works of, distribute, store, perform, and display Your Content and any name, username, voice, or likeness provided in connection with Your Content in all media formats and channels now known or later developed anywhere in the world. This license includes the right for us to make Your Content available for syndication, broadcast, distribution, or publication by other companies, organizations, or individuals who partner with Reddit. You also agree that we may remove metadata associated with Your Content, and you irrevocably waive any claims and assertions of moral rights or attribution with respect to Your Content.

dogleash 4y ago
Parent posted asked a "shouldn't they" question, not a "legally must they" question.
- janalsncm 4y ago
  Thank you for saying this. It’s a classic appeal to the law fallacy I see so often online.
ohgodplsno 4y ago
The Reddit user agreement is written based on US law and would be laughed out of any court in half the world. I literally _cannot_ waive my moral rights, and any company doing that is breaking the law in my country.

SkipperCat 4y ago

Users may not get paid, but they do get free access to one of the best moderated community web sites on the planet. I get hours of enjoyment and engagement from Reddit. Totally worth it for me. Of course YMMV...

bheadmaster 4y ago

Hopefully at least moderators will get paid, and finally be held accountable for their moderation. Powertripping basement dwellers who ban anyone who refuses to worship their supreme authority are one of the worse aspects of Reddit.

eppp 4y ago
I don't understand this attitude. If you don't like how someone mods their subreddit then why do you want to be part of it in the first place? You can make your own and run it how you please.
- evandale 4y ago
  You really can't make your own if you're going up against an established subreddit. This applies doubly so if it's an established region based subreddit i.e. city, state, province, or country, and IMO these are the most problematic subreddits for overmoderation. Finding non-partisan regional subreddits is damn near impossible.
  - MichaelZuo 4y ago
    There's two popular NYC subreddits. If two, why not three?
  - eppp 4y ago
    But then people complain about getting banned from the said subreddit for not following the rules that make it what it is. It seems like you want to engage an already established community and just ignore the people that are currently there and play by the existing rules.
    - bheadmaster 4y ago
      > people complain about getting banned from the said subreddit for not following the rules That's not at all what I'm saying. There are a few subreddits with fair mods who enforce the rules fairly, but the great majority doesn't - they are the rules, and if they don't like you, tough tiddies. Making it effectively a "mod and minions", not a real community with real rules.

jart 4y ago

What's good for Reddit is ultimately going to be good for Reddit users.

simion314 4y ago

The models should be open source because they used open source data to create them, or scrapped content without an explicit granted permission.

than3 4y ago

Not really, you have so much garbage mixed in from troll-bots.

tonystubblebine 4y ago

FWIW, we at Medium feel pretty similarly to Reddit but with a yes to this question about whether authors should get paid. AI companies are betraying basic business principles: they are taking value from datasets like Reddit and Medium without giving any value back. Fine if you can get away with it. But since AI, especially text based LLMs, relies on source material, it's pretty straightforward for the platforms that host that source material to deny access. Things like ChatGPT do need current source material. I don't think it'll come to a war though and that the AI companies will instead give some value back. It could be as simple as citations that send traffic back. That's essentially the exchange of value that we all have with Google these days. But if it's money, then I think the obligation is for platforms to pass that on the authors. It'd be hard for an individual author to negotiate this on their own with a company like OpenAI, but platforms are in a good position to negotiate on their behalf.

datavirtue 4y ago
The content is public. Internet companies are staring to sound like Disney. The AI is definitely giving value back.
- nicbou 4y ago
  It’s public for humans, not for other businesses stealing it for their own profit. I don’t want to be an anymous contributor to an AI.
  - rootusrootus 4y ago
    Another in a really long list of issues that need a clear differentiation between human consumption and machines. So many things that were innocuous or even useful before the age of ubiquitous cameras, other sensors, and computers, are now a big problem.
balls187 4y ago
As an end user I get a lot of value from AI companies. I’m curious how a content platforms TOS will matchup against a Search Engine’s webcrawler TOS. “I want people to find and access my content, but I own it.” vs “I will send people to your content, but any public data I can access, I can store and process how I want.”

jasonlotito 4y ago

There is already a compensation system setup for ugc. Users are already free to evaluate what they share on Reddit for what they get in return. But users have effectively been compensated for providing their content.

makestuff 4y ago

A startup actually messaged me a few months ago that is trying to do something similar to that. Basically you get paid for your ad targeting data.

janalsncm 4y ago

Moderators should, in my opinion. They’re doing a ton of the thankless janitorial work of cleaning up Reddit’s walled garden. If Reddit mods quit for a week Reddit wouldn’t have a product.

Entinel 4y ago

I would say no to this. Reddit is giving you a platform and in exchange they get the content. If you don't think that is fair deal you're free to just not make the content.

markdown 4y ago

As a Reddit addict who's spent thousands of hours on the website, I feel I am very well compensated for my content. For every post and comment I give to Reddit, Reddit serves me millions of posts and comments in return. This has massive entertainment and educational value to me, so I consider it a very favourable trade.

yreg 4y ago

And yet it's going to be the other way around, since now we, the users are going to have to pay for the API to use a usable app.