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Yeah, the EU is almost completely dependent on China without willing to sacrifice a rather significant drop in quality of life, which it proves over and over ag

Yeah, the EU is almost completely dependent on China without willing to sacrifice a rather significant drop in quality of life, which it proves over and over again it completely unwilling to do.

netsharc 3y ago
Quality of life? That requires buy-in from voters in a democratic society [1], and voters are humans, and humans are selfish. Phones made with cobalt mined by children? Shirts made in sweatshops in Bangladesh? But my QoL! [1] Well even dictatorship China relented when protests against Covid restrictions got too big.
- DocTomoe 3y ago
  > [1] Well even dictatorship China relented when protests against Covid restrictions got too big. Ultimately, all societies are democratic, because they require the buy-in from the population. The moment the population isn't willing to play nicely anymore, a state is doomed. See: France, ca. 1789.
throwaway4good 3y ago
Yep. We depend on trade with the outside world and we are mostly unwilling to give that up.
- cm2187 3y ago
  The question is whether we are dependent on China rather than the outside world. Let's not forget that there are many places that are now cheaper than China for manufacturing, and aren't potential political foe. It's also worth remembering that the movement of outsourcing of western manufacturing to China happened within only about 10 years (ie late 90s to late 2000s). That's actually pretty fast.
  - iforgotpassword 3y ago
    It would still be a sucky ten years, a sacrifice many people probably don't want to make. It's like the natural gas situation. We could already have a robust renewable setup here technology-wise, but it was easier to just rely on cheap gas. Now we cannot pull that renewable wonderland out of a hat over night...
  - ido 3y ago
    It's no longer textiles and cheap plastic trinkets "we" outsource to China - there's a lot of technical knowledge, infrastructure & skill now available in China that is not easily replaceable by opening a factory in Bangladesh or Turkey.
rob74 3y ago
Only the EU? And no democratic country is willing to make a significant sacrifice in quality of life, a government that causes this will be voted out.
- sofixa 3y ago
  Russian sanctions and their impact on gas shipments for Europe disproves your theory.
  - rob74 3y ago
    Opinion polls prove my theory, at least in Germany: if elections were held today, the current government coalition wouldn't be able to govern anymore - despite widespread general support for the sanctions against Russia, but just a small percentage of malcontents is enough to tip the scale...
    - soco 3y ago
      If only a small percentage is enough to tip the scale, the government wasn't extremely popular to start with.
      - rob74 3y ago
        Define "extremely popular" - they now have 416 out of 736 seats in the Bundestag, so around 56%, which is a relatively comfortable majority. This was achieved with SPD getting 25,7% of the vote, the Greens 14,8% and FDP 11,5% (the numbers don't add up because some parties didn't make the 5% limit, so the parties that do make it get a larger percentage of seats). According to the latest opinion polls, SPD would now get 19% (~6pp less), the Greens 17% (~2pp more) and FDP 7% (~4pp less). So, not a huge drop, and even a plus for one of the three parties, but still well below 50%...
rippercushions 3y ago
Really? I found the EU's willingness to cut themselves off from Russian fuel supplies, despite the risk of their own citizens literally freezing as a result, to be uncharacteristically ballsy. (And yes, I know the EU still imports some Russian gas, but it's a lot less than they used to, and they got quite lucky since the winter was mild.)
- The_Colonel 3y ago
  A small correction - Russia cut off EU from gas, not the other way round. The EU had a long term plan to wean itself off Russian gas, but Russia pre-empted it. The ballsy part was that EU was leading a foreign policy (support for Ukraine) while knowing it will probably lead to Russia cutting off the gas supply.
  - foverzar 3y ago
    > A small correction - Russia cut off EU from gas, not the other way round Do people in Europe actually believe that to be the case? Is this yet another "Russia blew up its own billion dollar industry" thing again? > it will probably lead to Russia cutting off the gas supply So, the supply disruptions have absolutely nothing to do with Europe freezing payments and accounts, as well as disrupting all the ecosystem around the industry with sanctions? You can't really live in a reality where you both claim yourself to be a victim of a countries supply disruptions and lead an economic war against it, right? How is that not doublethink? > The ballsy part was that EU was leading a foreign policy (support for Ukraine) We now publicly (thanks to Merkel's and Hollande's confessions) know that EU had been preparing to a full scale war under the guise of peace agreements. "Ballsy" is an ironic way to describe this situation, especially when any talk of negotiations or even a ceasefire gets shunted at.
    - _kbh_ 3y ago
      > We now publicly (thanks to Merkel's and Hollande's confessions) know that EU had been preparing to a full scale war under the guise of peace agreements Which was the right thing to do, we always knew Russia would invade again and any peace agreements with Russia aren't worth the paper they are written on. Russia already broke the previous agreement they had with Ukraine to never invade the country anyway. So why would this time be any different?.
jillesvangurp 3y ago
That works both ways. If the EU slams the door shut, the Chinese export market suffers. The Chinese are playing this very clever. The EU matters more to them than the US as a market and weakening ties between those two allies (classic divide and conquer) is a good move. Hence the Chinese are all friendly smiles when Germany pays them a visit. Win win. That visit has just one goal to ensure trade continues to function, which is a mutual interest of course. And also helps prevent things escalating into war. The US is of course highly selective when it comes to human rights. It says one thing to China and another thing to Saudi Arabia on the same topic. There's a lot more one could say about the apparent double standards applied there and elsewhere. But it all boils down to economic interests and level of influence it allows the US to wield. The EU is no different of course. Nor China.
- user_named 3y ago
  The US is trying to weaken the ties between EU and China. Classic divide and conquer.

Yeah, the EU is almost completely dependent on China without willing to sacrifice a rather significant drop in quality of life, which it proves over and over again it completely unwilling to do.

netsharc 3y ago

Quality of life? That requires buy-in from voters in a democratic society [1], and voters are humans, and humans are selfish. Phones made with cobalt mined by children? Shirts made in sweatshops in Bangladesh? But my QoL! [1] Well even dictatorship China relented when protests against Covid restrictions got too big.

DocTomoe 3y ago
> [1] Well even dictatorship China relented when protests against Covid restrictions got too big. Ultimately, all societies are democratic, because they require the buy-in from the population. The moment the population isn't willing to play nicely anymore, a state is doomed. See: France, ca. 1789.

throwaway4good 3y ago

Yep. We depend on trade with the outside world and we are mostly unwilling to give that up.

cm2187 3y ago
The question is whether we are dependent on China rather than the outside world. Let's not forget that there are many places that are now cheaper than China for manufacturing, and aren't potential political foe. It's also worth remembering that the movement of outsourcing of western manufacturing to China happened within only about 10 years (ie late 90s to late 2000s). That's actually pretty fast.
- iforgotpassword 3y ago
  It would still be a sucky ten years, a sacrifice many people probably don't want to make. It's like the natural gas situation. We could already have a robust renewable setup here technology-wise, but it was easier to just rely on cheap gas. Now we cannot pull that renewable wonderland out of a hat over night...
- ido 3y ago
  It's no longer textiles and cheap plastic trinkets "we" outsource to China - there's a lot of technical knowledge, infrastructure & skill now available in China that is not easily replaceable by opening a factory in Bangladesh or Turkey.

rob74 3y ago

Only the EU? And no democratic country is willing to make a significant sacrifice in quality of life, a government that causes this will be voted out.

sofixa 3y ago
Russian sanctions and their impact on gas shipments for Europe disproves your theory.
- rob74 3y ago
  Opinion polls prove my theory, at least in Germany: if elections were held today, the current government coalition wouldn't be able to govern anymore - despite widespread general support for the sanctions against Russia, but just a small percentage of malcontents is enough to tip the scale...
  - soco 3y ago
    If only a small percentage is enough to tip the scale, the government wasn't extremely popular to start with.
    - rob74 3y ago
      Define "extremely popular" - they now have 416 out of 736 seats in the Bundestag, so around 56%, which is a relatively comfortable majority. This was achieved with SPD getting 25,7% of the vote, the Greens 14,8% and FDP 11,5% (the numbers don't add up because some parties didn't make the 5% limit, so the parties that do make it get a larger percentage of seats). According to the latest opinion polls, SPD would now get 19% (~6pp less), the Greens 17% (~2pp more) and FDP 7% (~4pp less). So, not a huge drop, and even a plus for one of the three parties, but still well below 50%...

rippercushions 3y ago

Really? I found the EU's willingness to cut themselves off from Russian fuel supplies, despite the risk of their own citizens literally freezing as a result, to be uncharacteristically ballsy. (And yes, I know the EU still imports some Russian gas, but it's a lot less than they used to, and they got quite lucky since the winter was mild.)

The_Colonel 3y ago
A small correction - Russia cut off EU from gas, not the other way round. The EU had a long term plan to wean itself off Russian gas, but Russia pre-empted it. The ballsy part was that EU was leading a foreign policy (support for Ukraine) while knowing it will probably lead to Russia cutting off the gas supply.
- foverzar 3y ago
  > A small correction - Russia cut off EU from gas, not the other way round Do people in Europe actually believe that to be the case? Is this yet another "Russia blew up its own billion dollar industry" thing again? > it will probably lead to Russia cutting off the gas supply So, the supply disruptions have absolutely nothing to do with Europe freezing payments and accounts, as well as disrupting all the ecosystem around the industry with sanctions? You can't really live in a reality where you both claim yourself to be a victim of a countries supply disruptions and lead an economic war against it, right? How is that not doublethink? > The ballsy part was that EU was leading a foreign policy (support for Ukraine) We now publicly (thanks to Merkel's and Hollande's confessions) know that EU had been preparing to a full scale war under the guise of peace agreements. "Ballsy" is an ironic way to describe this situation, especially when any talk of negotiations or even a ceasefire gets shunted at.
  - _kbh_ 3y ago
    > We now publicly (thanks to Merkel's and Hollande's confessions) know that EU had been preparing to a full scale war under the guise of peace agreements Which was the right thing to do, we always knew Russia would invade again and any peace agreements with Russia aren't worth the paper they are written on. Russia already broke the previous agreement they had with Ukraine to never invade the country anyway. So why would this time be any different?.

jillesvangurp 3y ago

That works both ways. If the EU slams the door shut, the Chinese export market suffers. The Chinese are playing this very clever. The EU matters more to them than the US as a market and weakening ties between those two allies (classic divide and conquer) is a good move. Hence the Chinese are all friendly smiles when Germany pays them a visit. Win win. That visit has just one goal to ensure trade continues to function, which is a mutual interest of course. And also helps prevent things escalating into war. The US is of course highly selective when it comes to human rights. It says one thing to China and another thing to Saudi Arabia on the same topic. There's a lot more one could say about the apparent double standards applied there and elsewhere. But it all boils down to economic interests and level of influence it allows the US to wield. The EU is no different of course. Nor China.

user_named 3y ago
The US is trying to weaken the ties between EU and China. Classic divide and conquer.