8 ms·
Ampersand (2015)
- Camillo 4y agoIt wasn't a letter of the alphabet any more than the dollar sign, the pound sign, or punctuation were letters of the alphabet. It wasn't used in words. All that happened is that someone decided to put it at the end of the alphabet song to teach it to children, and that's where it got the name.
- martyvis 4y agoI remember getting a rubber stamp set as a kid here in Australia, probably around time I started school in 1968. They definitely had an ampersand, dollar and cents stamp and even "No." (with the superscript o)
- TRiG_Ireland 4y agoThe Numero Sign, №, despite representing Latin letters, apparently arose in Cyrillic usage as an independent symbol. Most languages just use No or Nr.
- the_mitsuhiko 4y ago> It wasn't a letter of the alphabet any more than the dollar sign, the pound sign, or punctuation were letters of the alphabet. I'm not aware of historic English alphabets that include the dollar or pound sign or any sort of punctuation. On the other hand there is a lot of evidence of & being part of the alphabet. Wikipedia has or links to plenty of cases: * Old Saxon alphabet: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_English_Latin_alphabet#/media/File:John_Fortescue,_The_Difference_between_an_Absolute_and_Limited_Monarchy_(1st_ed,_1714,_Saxon_alphabet_page).jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_English_Latin_alphabet#/me... * The Dixie Primer, for the Little Folks: https://docsouth.unc.edu/imls/moore/moore.html#moore5 https://docsouth.unc.edu/imls/moore/moore.html#moore5 * Byrhtferð's Old English Alphabet: https://www.evertype.com/standards/wynnyogh/thorn.html https://www.evertype.com/standards/wynnyogh/thorn.html * My Own Primer, or First Lessons in Spelling and Reading: https://shadycharacters.co.uk/2011/07/the-ampersand-part-2%C2%BD-of-2/ https://shadycharacters.co.uk/2011/07/the-ampersand-part-2%C... None of these are songs.
- chrismorgan 4y agoOld Saxon alphabet: despite being on an alphabet page, it’s very clearly separated from the letters. I’m not at all convinced that it was ever what you might call a letter of the alphabet. Although it seems to not have been rare to group it with the letters in some way, I have received the impression it wasn’t particularly common, and that it wasn’t how people generally thought of it. Nowadays we would draw a clear distinction between letters, numbers and symbols (maybe we have more symbols? though certainly fewer ligatures/abbreviations like Ƿᵉ), and call the alphabet just the letters, but I get the vibe that maybe “alphabet” wasn’t so strictly just the letters. But I handwave liberally and provide no sources in this mostly-uneducated suspicion of mine.
- mdswanson 4y agoIf you like this, I'd highly recommend the book, "Shady Characters: The Secret Life of Punctuation, Symbols, and Other Typographical Marks": https://a.co/d/iqGNnyi https://a.co/d/iqGNnyi
- newqer 4y agoI'm getting The Da Vinci Code vibes.
- blowski 4y agoAs in you think it’s a load of curious but bullshit stories?
- weinzierl 4y agoNot on punctuation specifically but otherwise highly recommended Robert Bringhurst's "The Elements of Typographic Style" discusses the ampersand and its usage in great depth. Somehow Bringhurst's obsession with this character is almost uncanny.
- silisili 4y agoThat's interesting, I for one had no idea. Does anyone have an explanation for the e and t, though? I don't see any of either of those letters in it. Maybe a tiny bit of e, but surely no t....
- alex_young 4y agoWikipedia has some interesting discussion on that point: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ampersand https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ampersand
- eyelidlessness 4y agoYou can see more of the shape in some type faces, it’s a capital E and lowercase t in cursive script. Once you see it, it’s also hard to unsee.
- jwilk 4y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Trebuchet_MS_ampersand.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Trebuchet_MS_ampersand.sv... is a great example.
- kitd 4y agoMy Linux computer has the Caladea typeface installed. '&' in that is clearly `e` and `t` elided. ed: See https://d144mzi0q5mijx.cloudfront.net/img/C/A/Caladea0.png https://d144mzi0q5mijx.cloudfront.net/img/C/A/Caladea0.png
- ars 4y agoI'm an advocate of bringing back thorn (Þ, þ) to replace the th, and yogh (Ȝ ȝ) to replace gh in words. No need for unnecessary digraphs with special pronunciation. I'm sure we could find other letters for the rest of them.
- carlmr 4y ago>I'm sure we could find other letters for the rest of them. Looking at the number of pronunciations for the same letter sequence in English you'd probably need an alphabet with hundredsof letters to make this happen. At this point you can just switch to IPA instead.
- kristopolous 4y agoI'm going to plug my friends project about this https://www.ekalipi.org/ https://www.ekalipi.org/ Don't ask me to defend it though. Good friend but not my project He was a software dev for like 45 years if you can tell from the site design
- cryptoz 4y ago& And per se and and per se and;
- eyelidlessness 4y ago& As It Is Such, So Also As Such Is It Unto You;
- ShamelessC 4y agoPeace be with you.
- JasonFruit 4y ago& cum spiritu tuo.
- smcin 4y agoWell, by the 19th-century mainly in (British?) English, according to those sources. By then had been abandoned in other European languages. Britannica [0] says: - invented by Romans c. 1st century BCE as a shorthand for 'et', can be seen from Pompeii - was [also] prevalent in German manuscripts throughout the 19th century. - gradually abandoned by most [non-English] languages by the end of the 19th century, with the notable exception of Gaelic, where it's also still used [as an evolution of the rival Tironian symbol]. and [1] has a really interesting illustration by Houston (1957) citing Tschichold (1953), showing the evolution of the ampersand over 2000 years, from Pompeii through 8th-C Merovingian Latin to modern-day. Latterly got pressganged by our C/C++ brethren. [0]: https://www.britannica.com/topic/ampersand https://www.britannica.com/topic/ampersand [1]: https://www.grammarphobia.com/blog/2020/12/ampersand-2.html https://www.grammarphobia.com/blog/2020/12/ampersand-2.html
- carlmr 4y ago> - was [also] prevalent in German manuscripts throughout the 19th century. It's still common enough in Germany, but mostly used for company names if you combine two names. E.g. Müller & Schmidt. Which is why it's also called the "Kaufmanns Und", the "merchants' and".
- croisillon 4y agothough german companies love to write themselves Müller + Schmidt
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- azepoi 4y agoalso sometimes called "Et commercial" in french, so "commercial and". The official name is esperluette which has a nice and probably similar history as ampersand.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
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- tptacek 4y agoMy understanding was that it's a ligature of the letters 'et', Latin for "and" (you can see it pretty clearly in some scripts, but it's not at all obvious in the typeface we're using here). But then, there used to be a letter for 'th', too.
- eCa 4y ago> But then, there used to be a letter for 'th', too. Which, with time, turned into the ”Ye” of ”Ye olde <thing>” [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_articles#Ye_form https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_articles#Ye_form
- hnlmorg 4y agoNearly. There was an abbreviation for “th” that latter looked like “y” (not “ye”) and with the invention of the pressing press, the letter “y” was often used as a substitute for the “throne” character (the character that represented “th”). So “ye” means “the”.
- TRiG_Ireland 4y agoIt wasn't an abbreviation for th; it was a separate letter in its own right with its own etymology.
- hnlmorg 4y agoGood point. Thanks for the correction.
- dragonwriter 4y ago> But then, there used to be a letter for ‘th’, too. Actually, there used to be two separate letters for ‘th’, Ð/ð (“eth”) and Þ/þ (“thorn”). Þ hung around longer than Ð, though.
- mathieuh 4y ago
- joosters 4y agoI was visiting the V&A museum the other day and came across some stone typography carvings by Eric Gill - they include A-Z, 0-9 and also just &. I wonder if this is why? (However, the ampersand is still very much separate from the alphabet on the stone) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Gill#/media/File:Eric_Gill_-_Alphabets_and_Numerals_(1909)_(V&A).jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Gill#/media/File:Eric_Gil...
- iainmerrick 4y agoWhat a beautiful carving! I love the Q’s and R’s.
- kgwgk 4y agoWrong title. Ampersand was once “and per se and” & was … should be Ampersand was once “and per se” and & was …
- mjamesaustin 4y agoAccording to the article, the former title is correct. The term was in fact "and per se and".
- dragonwriter 4y agoNo, title is correct, the name of the letter was pronounced “and per se and”, which slurred into the modern “ampersand”, and since “Ampersand” is the subject of the first clause of the sentence and the second clause is a dependent clause connected by a conjunction, not an independent clause joined by a comma and a conjunction, the subject doesn’t need repeated: the “&” is just the conjunction “and” not a repetition of the subject “ampersand”.
- SilasX 4y agoYes, they’re being overclever “&” earning an eyeroll from me (& everyone who expects headlines to be clear and easily parseable.
- kgwgk 4y agoOk, I stand corrected. But saying that the name of the character “&” was pronounced “and per se and” is like saying that the name of the character “Z” is pronounced “and zee” or “and zed”.
- gameman144 4y agoHow is it like saying "and zee"? The article pretty clearly outlines the logic here, and this would not be like that. If anything, it'd be "zee per se zee".
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- hknmtt 4y agoi'm reading a 70yo book and there is "&c" used instead of "etc".
- thanatos519 4y agoI still write like that!
- agalunar 4y agoSame! nice to meet another "&c" user ^_^ I'm afraid I can't remember why I began writing "&c" rather than "etc", although I know I now prefer it (rather than it merely being a matter of habit) since it neatly separates the "et" and the "cetera" and looks cute to boot. Do you remember where you picked up the practice?
- wjdp 4y agoI adopted it as etc or e.t.c. just seemed so clunky
- 1-more 4y agoDots are used to denote that the previous character is an initial for a longer word. Since "et" is a whole word you only put the dot after the "c" that stands for "cetera" so "e.t.c" is kind of a hypercorrection like octopi, ignorami, or habañero. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypercorrection https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypercorrection
- the_mitsuhiko 4y agoIt's particularly common in German blackletter texts though they use ⁊c instead of &c, same origin though.
- 1-more 4y agoAnyone else wondering what that little guy is it's a "Tironian et" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tironian_notes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tironian_notes
- zerocrates 4y agoThe "and per se and" origin sure feels like the kind of folk etymology that ultimately doesn't really have anything backing it up. But as far as I can see there really isn't any controversy over it.
- croisillon 4y agosince the french version esperluette comes from occitan "es per lou et", meaning "is for the and", i would say it is plausible
- AriedK 4y agoEarlier discussion, different source, roughly the same information. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32249465 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32249465
- Timwi 4y agoIn German, the & character is known as “kaufmännisches Und”, or “tradesman’s and”. For this reason, I used to believe that ampersand was really “amper’s and” and amper was somehow an obsolete word for tradesman. Needless to say, that it not the case, but it felt very convincing.
- weinzierl 4y agoI thought the same way. It's kind of so obvious but also so wrong.
- andrepd 4y agoIn Portuguese it's the "commercial and".
- augusto-moura 4y agoIn some latin languages we have a similar modern name ("e comercial" in portuguese, "y comercial" in spanish, "E commerciale" in italian), literally meaning "commercial 'and'". I'm not sure about the history about it though
- hoosieree 4y agoAmper (noun): one who amps. Today we use the term "influencer". Did you know that the term "computer" used to refer to an occupation? The same used to be true for audio amplifiers. It was a role traditionally occupied by the loudest shouter in the village.
- emersion 4y agoTo anyone trying to figure out what the missing "Eyetests were a lot easier in the 1920s" image was referring to, here's a link to an archived version: https://web.archive.org/web/20191128021121/http://dlewis.net/nik-archives/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/UQwhy.jpg https://web.archive.org/web/20191128021121/http://dlewis.net...
- tudorw 4y agodid they just hold it nearer or further away?
- themodelplumber 4y agoFascinating! I can just hear the lettering conversation... "We need a font with a TON of contrast for this. The thin parts should be negligible. Hairline. People should get to the R, reflect back on what they now realize was an H, and then start thinking about a more appropriate career"
- kamray23 4y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Didone_(typography) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Didone_(typography)
- sebstefan 4y ago[flagged]
- newqer 4y ago[flagged]
- nailer 4y ago> So the letter A would be read as “A per se A”, to ensure it was distinguished from the indefinite article a. The letter I, similarly, would be “I per se I” to differentiate it from the pronoun I. And the letter O would be “O per se O” to differentiate it from the interjection O! But we don’t want et the letter et here, we want the word et.
- RichieAHB 4y agoThe way I read the article is that the ampersand became a de facto 27th letter, so "and per se and" meant "the letter &", wheres "and" meant "the word and".
- nailer 4y agoYes re 27th letter, hence me writing that we want the word et (also known as ‘and’) not the letter. The author says the opposite in the part I quoted: > The letter I, similarly, would be “I per se I” to differentiate it from the pronoun I We want the word and/et in this case - we are saying 'John and Jane' not 'John (letter et) Jane'. So the author's logic is not consistent. Or I'm missing something. Alternative, more logical explanation (which may be garbage as it is unreferenced from wikipedia): > It was also common practice to add the & sign at the end of the alphabet as if it were the 27th letter, pronounced as the Latin et or later in English as and. As a result, the recitation of the alphabet would end in "X, Y, Z, and per se and".
- palotasb 4y ago> [...] A would be read as “A per se A”, [...] I, similarly, would be “I per se I” [...] O would be “O per se O” That's incorrect, these would have been respectively "per se A", "per se I", and "per se O." The confusion is coming from how the ampersand was listed out in the alphabet: > The alphabet is A, ..., X, Y, Z, and per se and. That doesn't mean "&" was spelled out as "and per se and" separately. The first and is because it's the last item in a list in a sentence. Only the second and is part of the full phrase of per se and. If you use it as a single item in a sentence, it works like this: > The last letter of the alphabet is per se and. The last sentence of the article: > the alphabet once ended with a final “X, Y, Z, and & per se &”. Should be: > the alphabet once ended with a final “X, Y, Z, and per se &”.
- bazoom42 4y agoThank you. I was really confused by the article. This makes a lot more sense.
- Kiro 4y agoBad title change. The last one summarized the whole article perfectly and made for interesting discussions.
- iddan 4y agoInterestingly enough, modern Hebrew adopted the sign. Even though it is not Latin-based / using the Latin alphabet. Probably as speakers knew it from other languages and the British mandate period
- makach 4y agoNothing quite like going down the rabbit hole on a Tuesday.
- NathanielBaking 4y agoThe Milk Carton Kids do a funny bit about this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idpZRb8VP50 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idpZRb8VP50 If you haven't heard of them and like singer-song writer with harmonies check em out.
- call_me_g0d 4y agoThanks for sharing this interesting history of the ampersand! It's always fascinating to learn about the origins of common symbols and phrases. I had heard that the ampersand was derived from the Latin word for "and", but I didn't know about its former status as a letter of the alphabet or the story behind its name.
- retrocryptid 4y agoIs it just me or is Haggard Hawk spouting ideas without citations? I don't know if they're right, but it would be cool if there were a link or two to an established source like an academic journal or even a Wikipedia page.
- javier_e06 4y agoSo is A(merican) T(elephone) and per se T(elegraph Company). eh? I've been saying wrong all this time.