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In China, Germany’s foreign minister does not hold back–and is still welcomed
- consumer451 3y agohttps://archive.is/T5G66 https://archive.is/T5G66
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- refurb 3y agoDivide and conquer, this has been China's approach for a long time. When Australia started to get closer to the US, China put blocks on imports, delayed customs clearance for food (so it spoiled), hoping to break Australia away from the Western Alliance. When Macron wanted to visit China, he was welcomed with open arms. China knows they can't go up against the entire Western world, but if they can peel off each country - one by one - they can go up against the US alone (or think they can), whether it be economic or military warfare.
- f6v 3y agoWith how the EU lets use itself it’d be a shame not to take advantage.
- brabel 3y agoWhy do you believe China has a desire to break the Western world?
- throwaway2990 3y agoSo it can do what it wants. Like control the South China Sea. Invade Taiwan. Reroute all rivers flowing into India for itself. Steal natural resources from countries. Control foreign governments. Basically everything it does now but without having to worry about everyone rallying against them.
- Bimos 3y agoSouth China Sea, Taiwan, India. Which of them is located in "Western"?
- throwaway2990 3y ago> Basically everything it does now but without having to worry about everyone rallying against them. Which part do you not understand?
- abudabi123 3y agoAsk the Roman Catholic Pope? Wasn't a decision made centuries ago?
- rob74 3y agoSo, imperialism. Which is what Western powers also did openly until the 1960s TBH, and less openly until today. Let's hope that Xi is less deluded than Putin and realizes that cooperation is better than confrontation. And the West has to try to remove some of the eggs from the Chinese basket and put them somewhere else...
- andybak 3y agoI must admit to largely preferring the less open version.
- throwaway2990 3y ago> Which is what Western powers also did openly until the 1960s TBH Sure. I wasn’t born then. But I would like to think society and governments have grown up since then and we can agree that invasion is wrong. Abuse of power is wrong. Britain has given up a lot of what it took. It has no control or say in australia or New Zealand. It gave HK back. Left Singapore, Myanmar, India. Etc. Obviously we can’t change what happened. None of us on HN or our families etc had any say in what happened for generations before we were born. But in 2023 we should be at a point where we can acknowledge it’s wrong and stop it from happening. Russia and China haven’t got that memo yet.
- justinclift 3y ago"Break" might not be the right word. China is clearly trying to supplant the US as the self-described "leader" of the world though.
- Haga 3y ago[dead]
- throwaway4good 3y agoIt doesn't; what is happening is the result of changed attitudes towards China particular in the US. It would have preferred to trade more with and have further cultural ties with the US.
- andybak 3y agoNah.
- oaw-bct-ar-bamf 3y agoDemocratic governments with freedom of expression and free speech is not compatible with the Chinese governance system
- creakingstairs 3y ago"break" has many meanings, but assuming you meant "break up" instead of "destroy": - China has openly supported Macron's "strategic autonomy" principle which aims to distance EU from USA. - Ever since Xi got his regime extended, they've been inviting nation leaders to increase their influence. In last 5 months, they've invited Germany, Iran, Spain, France and Brazil. - They've brokered a peace deal between Iran and Saudi. Which is another loss for US influencer in middle east, threatening the current petrodollar hegemony. Note that I'm not condemning China. It's just an observation. And honestly, they would be dumb if they didn't do this while US is pissing off their key allies with rate hikes and the IRA Act.
- sofixa 3y ago> China has openly supported Macron's "strategic autonomy" principle which aims to distance EU from USA. I find this completely normal, but also shortsighted in a way. A more strategically autonomous and assertive EU wouldn't blindly follow US' follies (cf. Iraq), but that doesn't mean it won't side with the US for a just cause (cf. Ukraine). The democratic values in the US, Canada, UK and EU are too similar for a complete strategic divergence in policies. Therefore we'd get a more strong, integrated and assertive EU leading the way in many areas trade, manufacturing and regulations-wise, that still collaborates with US and friends when it makes sense and the cause is just (so not in invading Iran on imaginary pretenses, but if China invades Taiwan brutally à la Russia invading Ukraine, probably).
- creakingstairs 3y agoIn short term, China loves "strategic autonomy" because Macron has also suggested that China invading Taiwan should not be EU's business under the principle(apparently he used much stronger words but was censored by his own communications team) In longer term, (pure speculation) I think China may believe that after a while, China would have so much global influence that even strategically autonomous EU would be reluctant to side with US even for blatantly "unjust" cause.
- paganel 3y ago
- spaceman_2020 3y agoThat's just western fantasy and fearmongering.
- refurb 3y agoHow on earth did you get "desire to break the Western world" from the statement "hoping to break Australia away from the Western Alliance". "Break away" as in "separate" or "remove from the group".
- throwaway4good 3y agoFrom China's perspective there is still hope for Germany. There are still political forces in Germany who believes in Merkel's old pragmatic change-through-trade approach to foreign policy. Even if Baerbock is not one of them, she represents an administration which clearly have those elements in it. To me it is obvious what path Germany will take. It cannot do a two-front economic war both against Russia and China at the same time. So maybe they won't outright insult the US like Macron did but they will not join an US-led cold war on China.
- personomas 3y agoYeah, the EU is almost completely dependent on China without willing to sacrifice a rather significant drop in quality of life, which it proves over and over again it completely unwilling to do.
- netsharc 3y agoQuality of life? That requires buy-in from voters in a democratic society [1], and voters are humans, and humans are selfish. Phones made with cobalt mined by children? Shirts made in sweatshops in Bangladesh? But my QoL! [1] Well even dictatorship China relented when protests against Covid restrictions got too big.
- DocTomoe 3y ago> [1] Well even dictatorship China relented when protests against Covid restrictions got too big. Ultimately, all societies are democratic, because they require the buy-in from the population. The moment the population isn't willing to play nicely anymore, a state is doomed. See: France, ca. 1789.
- throwaway4good 3y agoYep. We depend on trade with the outside world and we are mostly unwilling to give that up.
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- DocTomoe 3y agoGerman state visits to China all follow the same pattern. We go there, we bring presents, we talk about 'human rights' for a few minutes - a fig leaf just so we can claim moral superiority at home - and then we talk business for the next two to three days. Up to now, that worked pretty nicely. Beijing knows that Germany, and by extension Europe, is unwilling to stop cooperating, especially since China for the longest time has been Europes 'extended workbench'. Berlin knows that Beijing is a reliable partner in manufacturing. Everyone is happy, no-one wants to change the status quo. The situation is similar to the situation with Russia pre-2020 - and the last thing Europe needs is the US rattling the bars of another reliable partner.
- lispm 3y agoIf China tries to invade Taiwan, that situation will change.
- DocTomoe 3y agoWe'll see. China has been just about to invade Taiwan for 40 years, or longer. That being said: Russia was relatively little intertwined with our (= European and American) economies. That's a different situation with the PRC. I think it is not unlikely that there will be less unity in a "Case Taiwan".
- lispm 3y ago> I think it is not unlikely that there will be less unity in a "Case Taiwan". That's possible, but the consequences will still be vast. Many countries will go into a decade accelerating decoupling their economies from China. High tech will take a huge hit, stock markets may crash, ... A more authoritarian rulership in China with a democratic Taiwan as an alternative model is at odds.
- jansan 3y agoThe reactions on Baerbock's previous sloppy remark that "we are in war with Russia" showed that nobody takes her seriously. China knows that they can more or less ignore her and wait until the current government is pushed out and replaced by a more sane one.
- lispm 3y agoShe is right, Russia is in a war with the EU.
- paganel 3y agoCrazy how the Western media still clings on to people like Baerbock. Swear to God, even media in the dying days of the Ceausescu regime was not that deluded, and I say that as a on-and-off (mostly on) Economist reader for 15+ years and I also used to glimpse at some newspapers that my dad used to bring home when I was a kid (for the Ceausescu media part).
- knallfrosch 3y agoI think the cordialities have simple roots: Germany won't engage militarily anyway and we will continue to trade, too. The only threat to the relations can only come from the CCP restricting trade. Germany simply doesn't have a navy, overseas territories in the Pacific, nuclear submarine deals with Australia, a space force, a war-deciding satellite-internet company, or an air force that could fly further than Switzerland. On the economic side, Maybachs and Porsches sold to Chinese customers pay for our standard for living. We won't bite the hand that feeds us. On really crucial industries, we don't have anything, especially not in China: Social networks with billions of users, AI, computer chips, raw materials, PV cells - nothing. We couldn't cut them off from anything critical because we don't have it. To China, we're harmless. That's why they don't care. Smile and wave, boys.
- evv555 3y ago>On really crucial industries, we don't have anything, especially not in China: Social networks with billions of users, AI, computer chips, raw materials, PV cells - nothing. We couldn't cut them off from anything critical because we don't have it. From what I have heard Chinese factories use alot of German engineering. It's been a key component of China's ascent and the current leverage they have over western interests.
- pintxo 3y agoNo space force? Here you go: https://www.bundeswehr.de/de/organisation/luftwaffe/organisation-/weltraumkommando-der-bundeswehr https://www.bundeswehr.de/de/organisation/luftwaffe/organisa...
- LargoLasskhyfv 3y agoTsk. This! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzsxN4HNrNw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzsxN4HNrNw
- elefanten 3y agoDo you think this bothers Germans enough to want to change it? Or is all global, humanity-scale ambition gone (for generations, let’s say)?
- euroderf 3y ago> Responding to Ms Baerbock’s expression of concern about the violation of human rights of the Uighurs, a Muslim minority in the western region of Xinjiang, he talked about “lies” that were being spread about Xinjiang. He said Ms Baerbock could come to the region at any time to see for herself. Well well well. She should have said that IF she and her entourage receive guarantees that they are free to drive wherever they want AND free to photograph whatever they see, then she will take him up on his offer.