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I see so a vaporware product and a product with immense resources going into it, but not yet released are equal in your eyes. You remind me of the people who l

I see so a vaporware product and a product with immense resources going into it, but not yet released are equal in your eyes. You remind me of the people who laughed about reusable rockets, starlink, private crew, and every tesla model. They laugh right up to the point it is released, and then they move the goal posts to the next product.

threeseed 4y ago
And how about Solar City, Boring Company, Twitter. Musk doesn't exactly have a perfect track record.
- bottlepalm 4y ago
  I can't hear you over all the things being accomplished https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5QXreqOrTA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5QXreqOrTA
  - chronic74020 4y ago
    [flagged]
  - dingosity 4y ago
    All those poop and doge emojis make a ruckus.
  - xracy 4y ago
    Wow, he did it. First manned flight to space.[1] err. First Private manned flight to space. [2] Err, First completely private crew to go to space... Is that actually something we're considering a first? Can you really tell the difference between a person who works for the gov't and a person who doesn't well enough for that to be meaningful? If you have to explain in the accolade what it means, then it's not much of an accolade. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_human_spaceflights,_1961%E2%80%931970 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_human_spaceflights,_19... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_spaceflight#:~:text=On%20July%2020%2C%202021%2C%20Jeff,with%20only%20private%20citizens%20aboard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_spaceflight#:~:text=On....
    - bottlepalm 4y ago
      Who cares about first of anything. It’s all about operationalization. Dragon and Dragon 2 are rediculously successful programs that most people said was not possible. Most notably Boeing which is years behind sending crew to orbit even though receiving billions more from NASA. US astronauts would be depending on Russia right now to get to the ISS if not for SpaceX. Which means in this political climate there’s the good chance the IIS would be dead right now.
- DennisP 4y ago
  Having a perfect track record is a pretty high bar. Lots of entrepreneurs have failed with some of their businesses. We usually consider them successful if one works out really well, much less two.
andrewmcwatters 4y ago
I made no such comments, but OK, sure, whatever you say. Bottom line is, if you cannot buy it, it doesn't exist to the public. You can't drive .jpegs of cars.
- bottlepalm 4y ago
  Really? because a million people in the public have put real money into deposits for it. Seems like it does exist in the public eye.
  - xracy 4y ago
    If you give me $100 I will put you first in line for my new electric "xracy-truck" when it launches in 2027. We have a perfect track record of hitting our target deliveries for all of our projects. NOTE: You aren't actually getting the truck, I'm just giving you a spot in line to buy the truck. The truck still costs $80k
    - bottlepalm 4y ago
      Good idea, you won’t get any money which will prove my point that people can tell bullshit from an actual product. Well not you, but most other people.
  - rsynnott 4y ago
    Ah, yes, the Star Citizen argument.
rimunroe 4y ago
The defining feature of vaporware is that the product gets announced and then either isn't released or isn't released for a very long time. The term has nothing to do with the amount of resources being poured into it. One of the most famous examples of vaporware was the game Duke Nukem Forever, which started development in 1996, was announced in 1997, and wasn't released until 2011. I believe it was in nearly continuous development during that time. The size of the team working on it shrank and grew, but over time that seems like a massive investment. It doesn't change the fact that it was vaporware though.
- bottlepalm 4y ago
  I guess you have to use your own common sense to determine if a product is moving forward or not. DNF is a great example of something that obviously was not moving forward. CyberTruck obviously is.
  - dingosity 4y ago
    In what way is the cybertruck moving forward? You still can't buy one and if you put money down on one, you're still not getting your cybertruck. Reminds me of my Starlink experience: pay $100 to get on the waiting list, wait a while, pay an additional $500 to get the downlink terminal, wait, wait some more, try to figure out who I know who still works at SpaceX because there's no support contact info for people who have paid for a terminal but haven't gotten anything, send emails to about 10 people inside SpaceX until someone responds with an offer to refund $450, then take the offer, then wait for the refund, and wait for the refund and finally get the refund 3 months later. So I'm only out $150 from trying to subscribe to Starlink.
    - bottlepalm 4y ago
      Building factories and qualification testing is literal progress. Starlink has global availability right now though a laser backed network. The only place you can’t get it are overloaded cells and countries that have not given landing rights. I’m sorry for your anecdotal issue, but the system has over a million users so I think it’s fine. Starships first use will be to put up the 2nd gen network. It’s funny how people cry about high speed low latency internet in remote places that wasn’t even possible a few years ago.
xracy 4y ago
Speaking of moving goalposts... What about the hyperloop? Was supposed to be a vacuum-sealed tube with driverless pods that go 600 mph. -> tunnel with driverless cars that go 60mph -> tunnel with driver cars that go 30 mph... for a bit... until they hit traffic. Edit: How do you feel about the California High-Speed-Rail Project?
- bottlepalm 4y ago
  It’s very strange how anti innovation people are here on hacker news. Tesla does a lot of things, they’re not all going to be winners, why hold that against them, instead of celebrating their drive to do new ideas and not just what’s safe. They built a test hyper loop in California, boring company is actively building in Vegas and hardware to hold pressure in a tunnel was tested in Texas. It’s not like they say things and don’t follow up. Maybe it doesn’t happen at the speed you like, but there is a plan being executed on slowly but surely.
  - klyrs 4y ago
    Don't mistake anti-hype with anti-innovation. Folks at HN are wary of people who promise long and deliver short.
    - bottlepalm 4y ago
      Tesla has delivered more than enough, but people here will never be happy. Just like Bitcoin, I guarantee you the day it hits 100k people here will still be complaining about it
rsynnott 4y ago
> I see so a vaporware product and a product with immense resources going into it, but not yet released are equal in your eyes. No, no, they're completely different. That's why we all use Taligent, now.

threeseed 4y ago

And how about Solar City, Boring Company, Twitter. Musk doesn't exactly have a perfect track record.

bottlepalm 4y ago
I can't hear you over all the things being accomplished https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5QXreqOrTA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5QXreqOrTA
- chronic74020 4y ago
  [flagged]
- dingosity 4y ago
  All those poop and doge emojis make a ruckus.
- xracy 4y ago
  Wow, he did it. First manned flight to space.[1] err. First Private manned flight to space. [2] Err, First completely private crew to go to space... Is that actually something we're considering a first? Can you really tell the difference between a person who works for the gov't and a person who doesn't well enough for that to be meaningful? If you have to explain in the accolade what it means, then it's not much of an accolade. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_human_spaceflights,_1961%E2%80%931970 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_human_spaceflights,_19... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_spaceflight#:~:text=On%20July%2020%2C%202021%2C%20Jeff,with%20only%20private%20citizens%20aboard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_spaceflight#:~:text=On....
  - bottlepalm 4y ago
    Who cares about first of anything. It’s all about operationalization. Dragon and Dragon 2 are rediculously successful programs that most people said was not possible. Most notably Boeing which is years behind sending crew to orbit even though receiving billions more from NASA. US astronauts would be depending on Russia right now to get to the ISS if not for SpaceX. Which means in this political climate there’s the good chance the IIS would be dead right now.
DennisP 4y ago
Having a perfect track record is a pretty high bar. Lots of entrepreneurs have failed with some of their businesses. We usually consider them successful if one works out really well, much less two.

andrewmcwatters 4y ago

I made no such comments, but OK, sure, whatever you say. Bottom line is, if you cannot buy it, it doesn't exist to the public. You can't drive .jpegs of cars.

bottlepalm 4y ago
Really? because a million people in the public have put real money into deposits for it. Seems like it does exist in the public eye.
- xracy 4y ago
  If you give me $100 I will put you first in line for my new electric "xracy-truck" when it launches in 2027. We have a perfect track record of hitting our target deliveries for all of our projects. NOTE: You aren't actually getting the truck, I'm just giving you a spot in line to buy the truck. The truck still costs $80k
  - bottlepalm 4y ago
    Good idea, you won’t get any money which will prove my point that people can tell bullshit from an actual product. Well not you, but most other people.
- rsynnott 4y ago
  Ah, yes, the Star Citizen argument.

rimunroe 4y ago

The defining feature of vaporware is that the product gets announced and then either isn't released or isn't released for a very long time. The term has nothing to do with the amount of resources being poured into it. One of the most famous examples of vaporware was the game Duke Nukem Forever, which started development in 1996, was announced in 1997, and wasn't released until 2011. I believe it was in nearly continuous development during that time. The size of the team working on it shrank and grew, but over time that seems like a massive investment. It doesn't change the fact that it was vaporware though.

bottlepalm 4y ago
I guess you have to use your own common sense to determine if a product is moving forward or not. DNF is a great example of something that obviously was not moving forward. CyberTruck obviously is.
- dingosity 4y ago
  In what way is the cybertruck moving forward? You still can't buy one and if you put money down on one, you're still not getting your cybertruck. Reminds me of my Starlink experience: pay $100 to get on the waiting list, wait a while, pay an additional $500 to get the downlink terminal, wait, wait some more, try to figure out who I know who still works at SpaceX because there's no support contact info for people who have paid for a terminal but haven't gotten anything, send emails to about 10 people inside SpaceX until someone responds with an offer to refund $450, then take the offer, then wait for the refund, and wait for the refund and finally get the refund 3 months later. So I'm only out $150 from trying to subscribe to Starlink.
  - bottlepalm 4y ago
    Building factories and qualification testing is literal progress. Starlink has global availability right now though a laser backed network. The only place you can’t get it are overloaded cells and countries that have not given landing rights. I’m sorry for your anecdotal issue, but the system has over a million users so I think it’s fine. Starships first use will be to put up the 2nd gen network. It’s funny how people cry about high speed low latency internet in remote places that wasn’t even possible a few years ago.

xracy 4y ago

Speaking of moving goalposts... What about the hyperloop? Was supposed to be a vacuum-sealed tube with driverless pods that go 600 mph. -> tunnel with driverless cars that go 60mph -> tunnel with driver cars that go 30 mph... for a bit... until they hit traffic. Edit: How do you feel about the California High-Speed-Rail Project?

bottlepalm 4y ago
It’s very strange how anti innovation people are here on hacker news. Tesla does a lot of things, they’re not all going to be winners, why hold that against them, instead of celebrating their drive to do new ideas and not just what’s safe. They built a test hyper loop in California, boring company is actively building in Vegas and hardware to hold pressure in a tunnel was tested in Texas. It’s not like they say things and don’t follow up. Maybe it doesn’t happen at the speed you like, but there is a plan being executed on slowly but surely.
- klyrs 4y ago
  Don't mistake anti-hype with anti-innovation. Folks at HN are wary of people who promise long and deliver short.
  - bottlepalm 4y ago
    Tesla has delivered more than enough, but people here will never be happy. Just like Bitcoin, I guarantee you the day it hits 100k people here will still be complaining about it

rsynnott 4y ago

> I see so a vaporware product and a product with immense resources going into it, but not yet released are equal in your eyes. No, no, they're completely different. That's why we all use Taligent, now.