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The price of EVs is the only thing keeping me from replacing my 13 year old car. Everything I would consider buying is just slightly too high for my budget and

The price of EVs is the only thing keeping me from replacing my 13 year old car. Everything I would consider buying is just slightly too high for my budget and needs.

rnk 3y ago
gm bolt?
- ActorNightly 3y ago
  Its still a 27k car. You get more with a gas car at that price range. EVs are purely novelty item at this point. An EV vehicle is fundamentally simpler than a gas car in terms of parts required, and should be cheaper to make and way cheaper to buy new. Also you would see way more functional tech in regards to EV, like for example, cheaper battery packs that don't offer as much range and are power limited, but keep the price low. Or trunk mounted gas generators with fuel tanks for longer trips.
  - hedora 3y ago
    The total cost of ownership is much lower for EVs than gas cars though. I just spent over $100 filling up the gas tank of our backup car. We used to fill it about once a week. That's $5200 a year in gasoline at current prices. So, if the EV lasts 6 years (ignoring the discounted value of money over time, and the ever increasing cost of gasoline), it costs negative $4200 vs. whatever the retail price of the ICE car is.
    - robertlagrant 3y ago
      That's only if you fill up once a week. Anyone who does some remote working or any of a number of other mitigations is going to find an EV very expensive. Which is annoying, because I want one.
      - WorldMaker 3y ago
        If you are filling up less than once a week/once every two weeks you are risking stale gas and extra wear and tear on an internal combustion engine when you do use it, generally increasing the risk of expensive maintenance and still much higher TCO. For a remote worker with a vehicle that moves irregularly an EV is still cheaper and easier and more convenient. A battery charge doesn't "go stale" and you aren't going to get engine rattles and knocking or accidentally melted fuel lines from "old electrons".
        nicenewtemp84 3y ago
        What you're talking about here with stale gas is true... At maybe the 6 month mark. Not a week.
        duffyjp 3y ago
        We used to own a plug-in hybrid and it would keep track of when you filled up and occasionally force you to consume the gas in the tank. I want to say it was if you hadn't filled up in 6~9 months? Something like that. We always buy ethanol free gas too, which lasts for years. I don't even empty our lawn mower over winter, it doesn't matter with real gas and a sealed tank.
        mikestew 3y ago
        I'm a big EV fan who just dropped $60K on our second EV (my comment is probably still at the top of this page). I also used to be a professional auto mechanic, and I can tell you from both professional experience and personal (because we still have a rarely-driven ICE) that there is little basis in truth to what you posted. If you are filling up less than once a week/once every two weeks you are risking stale gas and extra wear and tear on an internal combustion engine when you do use it... No, the gas will have to sit much longer than that. We drove our previous EV for twelve years, while filling up the ICE Scion about once a month (if that). That Scion is still running just fine twelve years later. Don't even ask how long the gas sits in the VW camper van. I'd bet real money I go out, turn the key, and it'll fire up just fine. I'm all for encouraging folks to get an EV, but inaccurate information only hurts the cause.
    - lotsofpulp 3y ago
      It depends how much you drive the car, plus some ICE cars have the benefit of being tried and true workhorses that you assume will have a near 100% probability of meeting or exceeding your expectations, whereas an EV’s total cost is more volatile due to lack of data.
      - throwway120385 3y ago
        You can reasonably expect a car with simpler electrically-driven systems that are digitally controlled to be more reliable and to have more predictable failure modes than something driven by a long fluid-filled drivetrain that is powered by carefully-metered controlled explosions.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - ActorNightly 3y ago
      Base corolla is 21k. Base leaf with 40kwh is 27k. (Please double check my math on this, but Im pretty sure its correct) Corolla gets 32 mpg average. If you drive 10k miles a year, you spend about 312 gallons which is about $1000 in fuel costs give or take at regular 87 octane gas prices. Nissan Leaf is 7$ to recharge the 40kwh pack, for a range of 140 miles. For 10k miles, you need about 71 charges, which is about $500. Thats $500 per year difference, so you need >10 years to break even for the cost of the cars. And then, if you live in an area without convenient chargers, you pay secondary non-monetary costs for planning around charging. Insurance costs are also higher for a more expensive car. As far as battery goes, if you look at something like an ebike battery made out of LG 18650 cells, you get an approximate cost of $10 per cell including bms and assembly. Nissan leaf has 192 cells, but the battery pack costs way more than $1920, its closer to $4k. Huge markup. Lets hypothetically say that leaf had appropriately priced battery pack, which was $2k in stead of $4k. Thats still a $4k markup over corolla. There is no way an electric motor and controller cost an extra $4k over a ICE engine. Like I said, novelty. You are getting scammed.
      - GloriousKoji 3y ago
        Your numbers for your situation is way nicer than mine. I live in the California Bay Area. Right now Regular 87 octane Gas is $4.8/gal and electricity is $0.38/kwh. Nissan Leaf advertises 105 MPGe which is 3.12 mi/kwh. 10,000 miles / 32mpg * $4.8/gal = $1,500 a year for Corolla fuel 10,000 miles / 3.12mi/kwh * $0.38/kwh = $1,218 a year for Leaf electricity This is ignoring things like charging losses but also oil and filter changes.
        metal_am 3y ago
        To give some context for other parts of the country (TN): Gas is $2.92 and electricity is ~$0.11/kWh. 10,000 miles / 32mpg * $2.92/gal = $912.50 in fuel and 10,000 miles / 3.12mi/kwh * $0.11/kwh = $353.00 in electricity
    - felistoria 3y ago
      Just for reference I paid $80 in electricity to drive my EV 4000 miles. It's damn cheap if you charge at home.
  - mschuster91 3y ago
    > EVs are purely novelty item at this point. An EV vehicle is fundamentally simpler than a gas car in terms of parts required, and should be cheaper to make and way cheaper to buy new. Which means they have less stuff to break and thus less operating expense, yes. But the main cost block for an EV is the battery pack and power electronics - the ICE industry has had like a century of time to optimize every nook and cranny out of the production line, whereas mass manufactured EVs are only a decade or so old. (Yes there have been historic EVs too, but they differ so completely from today's EVs that there is no way one can speak of continuous experience building) The thing is, the operating expenses are way lower, for a small increase in base cost. No need to replace oil every so often, if you're running a diesel no AdBlue and no regular periods of increased fuel consumption to clean the particulate filter, no need to replace a clutch, timing belts or transmission, even the brake pads last longer because regenerative braking doesn't create any wear. For fuel, if you're somewhere in the suburbs, place some solar panels on your roof and enjoy virtually free, clean energy while the rest of your neighbors fuel human rights atrocities in OPEC countries. And the comfort of driving one is waaaay beyond ICE cars. Even your base Tesla Model 3 completely floors most affordable ICE cars at a red light drag race, they're so silent, no vibrations but those from the road, better handling because of the extremely low center of gravity, no headache inducing smell from cold starts in the winter...
    - GenerWork 3y ago
      >For fuel, if you're somewhere in the suburbs, place some solar panels on your roof and enjoy virtually free, clean energy How many people can afford a mortgage, a brand new car (even with the tax credits), AND solar panels all at the same time?
      - crazygringo 3y ago
        I mean, you can get literally all of those with financing. And you're not paying money on gas at all, which is the whole point. Sure there are down payments you have to plan for, but I'm not really sure what your point is. Yes, if you can't afford a new car you can't afford a new car. But the whole point of financing things is to come out ahead in the long run.
  - rnk 3y ago
    You can get a $7500 tax credit on a bolt and a few other cars. This is also true with the just updated EPA rules. This also means materials and manufacturing especially batteries were primarily from the US, Mexico or Canada. So it's effectively 20k for many people. EVs are expensive primarily because of the battery at this point. And the secondary reason is the tremendous demand combined with reduced availability of cars leads to dealers adding their dealer markup. There have already been EVs that sold for a lower price with software locked batteries that you could upgrade later. Almost 10 years ago Tesla offered that. There were cars with gas extenders like you described almost 10 years ago, the BMW i3 is one.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - lowbloodsugar 3y ago
    A 27k car that dealers are adding, coincidentally, a $7000 markup to, so the sticker price is $34,000. So not only do they take the tax credit, they also increase the sales tax you have to pay. You'd be insane to buy one. Get a Kia Rio and the TCO will still be less than the Bolt, and you'll never be stuck with an empty battery and a broken charger.
    - rnk 3y ago
      Dealers are doing that - yes. But it's not hard to find dealers in my big city that aren't doing it. Just search around on the internet and you can also find car dealers that don't add these charges.

The price of EVs is the only thing keeping me from replacing my 13 year old car. Everything I would consider buying is just slightly too high for my budget and needs.

rnk 3y ago

gm bolt?

ActorNightly 3y ago
Its still a 27k car. You get more with a gas car at that price range. EVs are purely novelty item at this point. An EV vehicle is fundamentally simpler than a gas car in terms of parts required, and should be cheaper to make and way cheaper to buy new. Also you would see way more functional tech in regards to EV, like for example, cheaper battery packs that don't offer as much range and are power limited, but keep the price low. Or trunk mounted gas generators with fuel tanks for longer trips.
- hedora 3y ago
  The total cost of ownership is much lower for EVs than gas cars though. I just spent over $100 filling up the gas tank of our backup car. We used to fill it about once a week. That's $5200 a year in gasoline at current prices. So, if the EV lasts 6 years (ignoring the discounted value of money over time, and the ever increasing cost of gasoline), it costs negative $4200 vs. whatever the retail price of the ICE car is.
  - robertlagrant 3y ago
    That's only if you fill up once a week. Anyone who does some remote working or any of a number of other mitigations is going to find an EV very expensive. Which is annoying, because I want one.
    - WorldMaker 3y ago
      If you are filling up less than once a week/once every two weeks you are risking stale gas and extra wear and tear on an internal combustion engine when you do use it, generally increasing the risk of expensive maintenance and still much higher TCO. For a remote worker with a vehicle that moves irregularly an EV is still cheaper and easier and more convenient. A battery charge doesn't "go stale" and you aren't going to get engine rattles and knocking or accidentally melted fuel lines from "old electrons".
      - nicenewtemp84 3y ago
        What you're talking about here with stale gas is true... At maybe the 6 month mark. Not a week.
        duffyjp 3y ago
        We used to own a plug-in hybrid and it would keep track of when you filled up and occasionally force you to consume the gas in the tank. I want to say it was if you hadn't filled up in 6~9 months? Something like that. We always buy ethanol free gas too, which lasts for years. I don't even empty our lawn mower over winter, it doesn't matter with real gas and a sealed tank.
      - mikestew 3y ago
        I'm a big EV fan who just dropped $60K on our second EV (my comment is probably still at the top of this page). I also used to be a professional auto mechanic, and I can tell you from both professional experience and personal (because we still have a rarely-driven ICE) that there is little basis in truth to what you posted. If you are filling up less than once a week/once every two weeks you are risking stale gas and extra wear and tear on an internal combustion engine when you do use it... No, the gas will have to sit much longer than that. We drove our previous EV for twelve years, while filling up the ICE Scion about once a month (if that). That Scion is still running just fine twelve years later. Don't even ask how long the gas sits in the VW camper van. I'd bet real money I go out, turn the key, and it'll fire up just fine. I'm all for encouraging folks to get an EV, but inaccurate information only hurts the cause.
  - lotsofpulp 3y ago
    It depends how much you drive the car, plus some ICE cars have the benefit of being tried and true workhorses that you assume will have a near 100% probability of meeting or exceeding your expectations, whereas an EV’s total cost is more volatile due to lack of data.
    - throwway120385 3y ago
      You can reasonably expect a car with simpler electrically-driven systems that are digitally controlled to be more reliable and to have more predictable failure modes than something driven by a long fluid-filled drivetrain that is powered by carefully-metered controlled explosions.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - ActorNightly 3y ago
    Base corolla is 21k. Base leaf with 40kwh is 27k. (Please double check my math on this, but Im pretty sure its correct) Corolla gets 32 mpg average. If you drive 10k miles a year, you spend about 312 gallons which is about $1000 in fuel costs give or take at regular 87 octane gas prices. Nissan Leaf is 7$ to recharge the 40kwh pack, for a range of 140 miles. For 10k miles, you need about 71 charges, which is about $500. Thats $500 per year difference, so you need >10 years to break even for the cost of the cars. And then, if you live in an area without convenient chargers, you pay secondary non-monetary costs for planning around charging. Insurance costs are also higher for a more expensive car. As far as battery goes, if you look at something like an ebike battery made out of LG 18650 cells, you get an approximate cost of $10 per cell including bms and assembly. Nissan leaf has 192 cells, but the battery pack costs way more than $1920, its closer to $4k. Huge markup. Lets hypothetically say that leaf had appropriately priced battery pack, which was $2k in stead of $4k. Thats still a $4k markup over corolla. There is no way an electric motor and controller cost an extra $4k over a ICE engine. Like I said, novelty. You are getting scammed.
    - GloriousKoji 3y ago
      Your numbers for your situation is way nicer than mine. I live in the California Bay Area. Right now Regular 87 octane Gas is $4.8/gal and electricity is $0.38/kwh. Nissan Leaf advertises 105 MPGe which is 3.12 mi/kwh. 10,000 miles / 32mpg * $4.8/gal = $1,500 a year for Corolla fuel 10,000 miles / 3.12mi/kwh * $0.38/kwh = $1,218 a year for Leaf electricity This is ignoring things like charging losses but also oil and filter changes.
      - metal_am 3y ago
        To give some context for other parts of the country (TN): Gas is $2.92 and electricity is ~$0.11/kWh. 10,000 miles / 32mpg * $2.92/gal = $912.50 in fuel and 10,000 miles / 3.12mi/kwh * $0.11/kwh = $353.00 in electricity
  - felistoria 3y ago
    Just for reference I paid $80 in electricity to drive my EV 4000 miles. It's damn cheap if you charge at home.
- mschuster91 3y ago
  > EVs are purely novelty item at this point. An EV vehicle is fundamentally simpler than a gas car in terms of parts required, and should be cheaper to make and way cheaper to buy new. Which means they have less stuff to break and thus less operating expense, yes. But the main cost block for an EV is the battery pack and power electronics - the ICE industry has had like a century of time to optimize every nook and cranny out of the production line, whereas mass manufactured EVs are only a decade or so old. (Yes there have been historic EVs too, but they differ so completely from today's EVs that there is no way one can speak of continuous experience building) The thing is, the operating expenses are way lower, for a small increase in base cost. No need to replace oil every so often, if you're running a diesel no AdBlue and no regular periods of increased fuel consumption to clean the particulate filter, no need to replace a clutch, timing belts or transmission, even the brake pads last longer because regenerative braking doesn't create any wear. For fuel, if you're somewhere in the suburbs, place some solar panels on your roof and enjoy virtually free, clean energy while the rest of your neighbors fuel human rights atrocities in OPEC countries. And the comfort of driving one is waaaay beyond ICE cars. Even your base Tesla Model 3 completely floors most affordable ICE cars at a red light drag race, they're so silent, no vibrations but those from the road, better handling because of the extremely low center of gravity, no headache inducing smell from cold starts in the winter...
  - GenerWork 3y ago
    >For fuel, if you're somewhere in the suburbs, place some solar panels on your roof and enjoy virtually free, clean energy How many people can afford a mortgage, a brand new car (even with the tax credits), AND solar panels all at the same time?
    - crazygringo 3y ago
      I mean, you can get literally all of those with financing. And you're not paying money on gas at all, which is the whole point. Sure there are down payments you have to plan for, but I'm not really sure what your point is. Yes, if you can't afford a new car you can't afford a new car. But the whole point of financing things is to come out ahead in the long run.
- rnk 3y ago
  You can get a $7500 tax credit on a bolt and a few other cars. This is also true with the just updated EPA rules. This also means materials and manufacturing especially batteries were primarily from the US, Mexico or Canada. So it's effectively 20k for many people. EVs are expensive primarily because of the battery at this point. And the secondary reason is the tremendous demand combined with reduced availability of cars leads to dealers adding their dealer markup. There have already been EVs that sold for a lower price with software locked batteries that you could upgrade later. Almost 10 years ago Tesla offered that. There were cars with gas extenders like you described almost 10 years ago, the BMW i3 is one.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- lowbloodsugar 3y ago
  A 27k car that dealers are adding, coincidentally, a $7000 markup to, so the sticker price is $34,000. So not only do they take the tax credit, they also increase the sales tax you have to pay. You'd be insane to buy one. Get a Kia Rio and the TCO will still be less than the Bolt, and you'll never be stuck with an empty battery and a broken charger.
  - rnk 3y ago
    Dealers are doing that - yes. But it's not hard to find dealers in my big city that aren't doing it. Just search around on the internet and you can also find car dealers that don't add these charges.