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If I'm not mistaken, Plato's political cycle is monarchy replaced by oligarchy replaced by plutocracy replaced by democracy, which in turn is replaced with mob

If I'm not mistaken, Plato's political cycle is monarchy replaced by oligarchy replaced by plutocracy replaced by democracy, which in turn is replaced with mob rule / anarchy then tyranny and return back to monarchy.

bee_rider 4y ago
Plato probably had a different conception of what a democracy is than we do now. My suspicion is that the more open and egalitarian and a democracy is, the more resistant it is to corruption, and the more faith the people have in it. The US was denying like half of our population (women) voting rights until like 1920, so it is hard spot trends in such a short time scale. I mean it is probably just a coincidence of history and geography that we’ve been absurdly successful since then. Nowadays I’d be more worried about the trajectory: Democracy->Oligarchy->Populist backlash/Mob rule->Tyranny. Although I guess that’s really tied to concerns about the long term trajectory for the US (hey at least it isn’t tied to ancient concerns about the trajectory of Athens or whatever).
- somenameforme 4y ago
  Plato's Republic might surprise you then. If nothing else, check out chapter 8 [1]. That particular translation also has side notes offering extremely brief paraphrasings of each section, if you'd prefer to skim. It also includes an introductory section with a more modern rephrasing of each chapter. The oft repeated "drone" refers to individuals primarily driven and motivated by endless self indulgence. Plato frequently uses bees as a metaphor throughout the text. His view is not that systems collapse due to some immediately apparent failing, but rather due to an excess of the strength of any given system. In democracy that strength, and excess, is freedom. So, for instance, he observes how freedom trends towards a disdain for authority which, taken to its natural extreme, tends to lead to chaos and lawlessness. Another is class warfare. In democracy, the political class is largely comprised of the most effective of the "drones." They will make their way to power, actively looting the wealth of the nation; spreading a taste to the masses for support, while keeping the lion's share for themselves. But of course the wealth of the "nation" is, in reality, the wealth of other people. Those negatively affected tended to start pushing back. They, in turn, are demonized by the drones in power and next thing you know, there's class conflict. And quite an ironic one at that, as it's led by rich politicians pretending to be part of the masses. Ultimately the end of democracy, and transition to tyranny, comes about when the masses manage to elevate somebody they see as genuinely representing them. And this person is first struck down by the powers that be for fear of what he might to do them, only to come back ever more empowered - and eventually seizing on all of power, something actively cheered on by his supporters. ---- Reading Plato is largely what made me realize that "history repeats itself" is not some abstract concept where things kind of repeat the same patterns if you squint hard enough. It is completely literal. We keep repeating the exact same things, over and over again, with little more than technology providing a change of scenery. My description above sounds like I'm retrofitting current events into Plato. I am not. Current events just fit his text in a completely uncanny fashion. [1] - https://www.gutenberg.org/files/55201/55201-h/55201-h.htm#BookVIII https://www.gutenberg.org/files/55201/55201-h/55201-h.htm#Bo...
chrisco255 4y ago
That's a cute over-simplification by Plato, but we have thousands of years of human history since then that shows that's not true.

bee_rider 4y ago

Plato probably had a different conception of what a democracy is than we do now. My suspicion is that the more open and egalitarian and a democracy is, the more resistant it is to corruption, and the more faith the people have in it. The US was denying like half of our population (women) voting rights until like 1920, so it is hard spot trends in such a short time scale. I mean it is probably just a coincidence of history and geography that we’ve been absurdly successful since then. Nowadays I’d be more worried about the trajectory: Democracy->Oligarchy->Populist backlash/Mob rule->Tyranny. Although I guess that’s really tied to concerns about the long term trajectory for the US (hey at least it isn’t tied to ancient concerns about the trajectory of Athens or whatever).

somenameforme 4y ago
Plato's Republic might surprise you then. If nothing else, check out chapter 8 [1]. That particular translation also has side notes offering extremely brief paraphrasings of each section, if you'd prefer to skim. It also includes an introductory section with a more modern rephrasing of each chapter. The oft repeated "drone" refers to individuals primarily driven and motivated by endless self indulgence. Plato frequently uses bees as a metaphor throughout the text. His view is not that systems collapse due to some immediately apparent failing, but rather due to an excess of the strength of any given system. In democracy that strength, and excess, is freedom. So, for instance, he observes how freedom trends towards a disdain for authority which, taken to its natural extreme, tends to lead to chaos and lawlessness. Another is class warfare. In democracy, the political class is largely comprised of the most effective of the "drones." They will make their way to power, actively looting the wealth of the nation; spreading a taste to the masses for support, while keeping the lion's share for themselves. But of course the wealth of the "nation" is, in reality, the wealth of other people. Those negatively affected tended to start pushing back. They, in turn, are demonized by the drones in power and next thing you know, there's class conflict. And quite an ironic one at that, as it's led by rich politicians pretending to be part of the masses. Ultimately the end of democracy, and transition to tyranny, comes about when the masses manage to elevate somebody they see as genuinely representing them. And this person is first struck down by the powers that be for fear of what he might to do them, only to come back ever more empowered - and eventually seizing on all of power, something actively cheered on by his supporters. ---- Reading Plato is largely what made me realize that "history repeats itself" is not some abstract concept where things kind of repeat the same patterns if you squint hard enough. It is completely literal. We keep repeating the exact same things, over and over again, with little more than technology providing a change of scenery. My description above sounds like I'm retrofitting current events into Plato. I am not. Current events just fit his text in a completely uncanny fashion. [1] - https://www.gutenberg.org/files/55201/55201-h/55201-h.htm#BookVIII https://www.gutenberg.org/files/55201/55201-h/55201-h.htm#Bo...

chrisco255 4y ago

That's a cute over-simplification by Plato, but we have thousands of years of human history since then that shows that's not true.