4 ms·

There is functionally no comparison.

by shadowgovt 4y ago

prohobo 4y ago
It's soft, but it's the same practice.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- whatshisface 4y ago
  Could we get some facts and examples? This is heading in the direction of a "no it isn't, yes it is" type discussion.
  - prohobo 4y ago
    Sorry, I'm just not interested in really arguing about it anymore except to disagree whenever I see someone act like it's not happening. There are direct parallels in modern Wokeness to Maoist history. There's a great podcast about it which is worth listening to: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqD5RF2Kwjs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqD5RF2Kwjs and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaw72Wxz9EY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaw72Wxz9EY Some examples: - They are both offshoots of Marxism. This is an easy target, but it serves as the foundation for the rest of the parallels. - Struggle sessions: occur on social media in modern times as mob freakouts and "cancellation" of people/organizations. - Us vs. them: to be an ally of the cause you have to always agree with it. Any deviation from the current narrative makes you vulnerable to being painted an enemy - regardless of your rational arguments or personal support for the cause. The narrative is dictated by elites. "Not to have a correct political orientation is like not having a soul." - Mao This is the concept of "the people" and "the enemy", as per Mao, and it informs why often progressive allies get suddenly railroaded and become the same as right wingers in the eyes of the indoctrinated. - Totalism: the ideology must intertwine in every aspect of daily life. It has to be in everything. At school, on TV, in the news, in advertisements, in food, whatever. Wherever totalism exists, institutions become closed groups akin to a cult. I'm sure everyone has noticed Wokeness in basically everything now, gradually introduced over the past 7-8 years. - "The Great Leap Forward": this isn't so much a direct parallel, but probably coincidental that The Great Reset is essentially the same idea that Mao had, and has such a similar name. - Maoist freedom and democracy in society guided by ideological elites: the modern parallel is stakeholder capitalism. The point is that ideologues dictate what is or isn't allowed, while supposedly maintaining a free and open market. This is different from democratically established oversight and regulations because the stakeholders are not elected or accountable to anyone. There's too much to go into as it's a really really deep topic, but hopefully I at least gave some idea of how these political movements are comparable.
    - shadowgovt 4y ago
      I think the source for these two YouTube videos is highly suspect. Isn't this the same guy who got called out by Claire Lehmann for promoting white genocide theory? Source aside, I think this is another example of confusing common elements in any cultural shift with the totalitarian violence-oriented method employed by the Maoists. "Stakeholder capitalism," for example, is a fancy term for "Corporations bow to their stakeholders." But who are the stakeholders? They're mostly customers. So if the customers are rewarding companies for (at least paying lip-service to) being open-minded about diverse ways of being, then who we blame for capitalism-backed-democracy being "subverted" is... The people? Can the people subvert their own democratic system?
      - prohobo 4y ago
        Actually the stakeholders are the investment firms implementing ESG programs. What you're referring to is a different kind of capitalism from what we currently have. I think it was in the late 19th century that someone first figured out that you can give out a newspaper for free and make tons of money by selling ad placements and creating eye-catching headlines. That's the current model of capitalism, where the "customer" is not a stakeholder at all but is instead the product. Investors are the real stakeholders. As for the YouTube videos being suspect, half of the content is direct quoting from Maoist literature, and I think a discerning intelligent person can figure it out for themselves.
        shadowgovt 4y ago
        What investment firms are those, and what benefits to they gain from ESG programs?
        prohobo 4y ago
        https://www.forbes.com/advisor/investing/best-esg-funds/ https://www.forbes.com/advisor/investing/best-esg-funds/ The biggest ones are of course Vanguard and Blackrock. I don't really know what they gain from it. I don't think it's anything directly, but maybe it's part of the intertwining of state and corporation, where they scratch each others' backs and compensate for each others' weaknesses.
pphysch 4y ago
There absolutely is. While the kinetic and political situation in USA is much less severe than civil war China, initiatives like ESG, DEI are about changing the culture and thought patterns of individuals. They are forms of reeducation. And I do support some of these "new" ideas, but we should be clear-eyed about what's going on and how it could escalate if there is further political breakdown.
- shadowgovt 4y ago
  By that metric, you can place organized religion, self-help programs, and the public education system in the same bag. It's true, but it's as uselessly true as weighing the pros and cons of having two arms given how many of Hitler's footsoldiers were observed historically to also have two arms.
  - whatshisface 4y ago
    Organized religion can be very cruel and totalitarian.
  - pphysch 4y ago
    It's not "uselessly true" to identify recent historical analogues. Quite the opposite. And yes, thought control is as old as civilization. It was not invented by the WW2 bad guys.
    - shadowgovt 4y ago
      But the point is when the bag is that big, "thought control" is also not apriori bad, and implying it is so by comparing corporate education and policy programs to China's liquidation program is, at best, incredibly disjoint.
      - pphysch 4y ago
        It's not disjoint, it's on the same spectrum. USG had pretty serious liquidation programs of their own during that era, from Japanese internment to COINTELPRO and all the deaths that resulted. And in 2023, far beyond ESG and DEI, we are looking at rising Red & Yellow Scare 2.0. (the persecution of Gang Chen for instance).
hn_throawlles 4y ago
[flagged]
- anigbrowl 4y ago
  Go to your profile and turn on 'showdead'.
commandlinefan 4y ago
> There is functionally no comparison Yet. That is the goal, though.

There is functionally no comparison.

prohobo 4y ago

It's soft, but it's the same practice.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
whatshisface 4y ago
Could we get some facts and examples? This is heading in the direction of a "no it isn't, yes it is" type discussion.
- prohobo 4y ago
  Sorry, I'm just not interested in really arguing about it anymore except to disagree whenever I see someone act like it's not happening. There are direct parallels in modern Wokeness to Maoist history. There's a great podcast about it which is worth listening to: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqD5RF2Kwjs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqD5RF2Kwjs and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaw72Wxz9EY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaw72Wxz9EY Some examples: - They are both offshoots of Marxism. This is an easy target, but it serves as the foundation for the rest of the parallels. - Struggle sessions: occur on social media in modern times as mob freakouts and "cancellation" of people/organizations. - Us vs. them: to be an ally of the cause you have to always agree with it. Any deviation from the current narrative makes you vulnerable to being painted an enemy - regardless of your rational arguments or personal support for the cause. The narrative is dictated by elites. "Not to have a correct political orientation is like not having a soul." - Mao This is the concept of "the people" and "the enemy", as per Mao, and it informs why often progressive allies get suddenly railroaded and become the same as right wingers in the eyes of the indoctrinated. - Totalism: the ideology must intertwine in every aspect of daily life. It has to be in everything. At school, on TV, in the news, in advertisements, in food, whatever. Wherever totalism exists, institutions become closed groups akin to a cult. I'm sure everyone has noticed Wokeness in basically everything now, gradually introduced over the past 7-8 years. - "The Great Leap Forward": this isn't so much a direct parallel, but probably coincidental that The Great Reset is essentially the same idea that Mao had, and has such a similar name. - Maoist freedom and democracy in society guided by ideological elites: the modern parallel is stakeholder capitalism. The point is that ideologues dictate what is or isn't allowed, while supposedly maintaining a free and open market. This is different from democratically established oversight and regulations because the stakeholders are not elected or accountable to anyone. There's too much to go into as it's a really really deep topic, but hopefully I at least gave some idea of how these political movements are comparable.
  - shadowgovt 4y ago
    I think the source for these two YouTube videos is highly suspect. Isn't this the same guy who got called out by Claire Lehmann for promoting white genocide theory? Source aside, I think this is another example of confusing common elements in any cultural shift with the totalitarian violence-oriented method employed by the Maoists. "Stakeholder capitalism," for example, is a fancy term for "Corporations bow to their stakeholders." But who are the stakeholders? They're mostly customers. So if the customers are rewarding companies for (at least paying lip-service to) being open-minded about diverse ways of being, then who we blame for capitalism-backed-democracy being "subverted" is... The people? Can the people subvert their own democratic system?
    - prohobo 4y ago
      Actually the stakeholders are the investment firms implementing ESG programs. What you're referring to is a different kind of capitalism from what we currently have. I think it was in the late 19th century that someone first figured out that you can give out a newspaper for free and make tons of money by selling ad placements and creating eye-catching headlines. That's the current model of capitalism, where the "customer" is not a stakeholder at all but is instead the product. Investors are the real stakeholders. As for the YouTube videos being suspect, half of the content is direct quoting from Maoist literature, and I think a discerning intelligent person can figure it out for themselves.
      - shadowgovt 4y ago
        What investment firms are those, and what benefits to they gain from ESG programs?
        prohobo 4y ago
        https://www.forbes.com/advisor/investing/best-esg-funds/ https://www.forbes.com/advisor/investing/best-esg-funds/ The biggest ones are of course Vanguard and Blackrock. I don't really know what they gain from it. I don't think it's anything directly, but maybe it's part of the intertwining of state and corporation, where they scratch each others' backs and compensate for each others' weaknesses.

pphysch 4y ago

There absolutely is. While the kinetic and political situation in USA is much less severe than civil war China, initiatives like ESG, DEI are about changing the culture and thought patterns of individuals. They are forms of reeducation. And I do support some of these "new" ideas, but we should be clear-eyed about what's going on and how it could escalate if there is further political breakdown.

shadowgovt 4y ago
By that metric, you can place organized religion, self-help programs, and the public education system in the same bag. It's true, but it's as uselessly true as weighing the pros and cons of having two arms given how many of Hitler's footsoldiers were observed historically to also have two arms.
- whatshisface 4y ago
  Organized religion can be very cruel and totalitarian.
- pphysch 4y ago
  It's not "uselessly true" to identify recent historical analogues. Quite the opposite. And yes, thought control is as old as civilization. It was not invented by the WW2 bad guys.
  - shadowgovt 4y ago
    But the point is when the bag is that big, "thought control" is also not apriori bad, and implying it is so by comparing corporate education and policy programs to China's liquidation program is, at best, incredibly disjoint.
    - pphysch 4y ago
      It's not disjoint, it's on the same spectrum. USG had pretty serious liquidation programs of their own during that era, from Japanese internment to COINTELPRO and all the deaths that resulted. And in 2023, far beyond ESG and DEI, we are looking at rising Red & Yellow Scare 2.0. (the persecution of Gang Chen for instance).

hn_throawlles 4y ago

[flagged]

anigbrowl 4y ago
Go to your profile and turn on 'showdead'.

commandlinefan 4y ago

> There is functionally no comparison Yet. That is the goal, though.