4 ms·

FBI Arrests Two on Charges Tied to Chinese Police Outpost in New York

66 points by mikhael 4y ago

euroderf 4y ago
The article makes no mention of international law, or of extraterritoriality. Could they not find an appropriate expert to quote ?
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  > The article makes no mention of international law, or of extraterritoriality. Because neither is particularly relevant here; these are actions in places under simple US jurisdiction, by people under simple US jurisdiction, not by PRC diplomats and/or carried out in facilities that are PRC extraterritorial enclaves. EDIT: For the arrestees. For the non-arrested charged parties, I suppose an expert on international law and extraterritoriality could explain that there is no international law protecting people from charges for working in their own country to violate the laws of another country, though enforcement of those charges may be difficult so long as the charged parties remain in and protected by the government of China. But, I mean, it doesn’t really take an expert in international law and extraterritoriality to explain that, either.
  - euroderf 4y ago
    I don't disagree. But I detect a whiff of hypocrisy on the part of American law enforcement, which often seems to have a different idea about its ability to act outside its borders. Very strong assertions of extraterritoriality. But, well, do as I say, not as I do.
    - mcv 4y ago
      You do have somewhat of a point here. The US is one of only two countries (and the only country that can make it stick) that sees any American or any person born in the US, as falling under US tax law, and requires them to file taxes in the US, even if they don't live there or work there. Banks across the world are required to enforce this and have special rules for "US Persons" or they're not allowed to do business with the US, which is understandably crippling for any bank. Because of this, even some people who feel like they have no connection with the US at all, may be unable to open a bank account anywhere unless they agree to file taxes in the US. So yes, the US also tries to exert power over people it considers American subjects well outside its jurisdiction. That doesn't excuse China intimidating and threatening Chinese people living abroad, though.
      - euroderf 4y ago
        Oh, I mean more than just tax filing requirements. Which (I can say as an ex-pat) are a massive PITA.
RedCondor 4y ago
[flagged]
- d23 4y ago
  They will have to present their evidence in court.
  - SllX 4y ago
    Correct! A lot of people forget the big problem with “secret police” isn’t the “police” part, it’s the “secret” part.
- kotaKat 4y ago
  https://archive.is/wGdhy https://archive.is/wGdhy "The New York outpost, which was set up by the city of Fuzhou, is based in the offices of a Chinese community organization, the America Changle Association NY, according to the state-run China Youth Daily, which last year published a document listing various police outposts. Changle is a district in the city of Fuzhou. The article has since been deleted. Other addresses of Chinese police outposts match locations of private businesses, including Chinese restaurants and commercial associations." Here's an NGO independent investigation, if that helps, into these foreign service centers: https://safeguarddefenders.com/en/blog/230000-policing-expands https://safeguarddefenders.com/en/blog/230000-policing-expan...
  - RedCondor 4y ago
    If this "About" page says "independence" to you, we simply live in different planets. https://safeguarddefenders.com/en/about-us#who-we-are https://safeguarddefenders.com/en/about-us#who-we-are
Parcel7183 4y ago
[flagged]
- d23 4y ago
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
  - Parcel7183 4y ago
    Not really? I'm just saying that this situation shouldn't be viewed from any kind of moral highground, because US organizations have engaged in (and continue to engage) in equally bad operations. The entire "America is under threat" narrative falls apart when you consider how much damage the US has done to the third world in general.
    - lazyeye 4y ago
      There should be a rule where advocates for countries that suppress all criticism and knowledge of their own bad behaviour, are allowed to talk about the behaviour of anyone else, particularly those countries that do allow free speech.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
- moose_man 4y ago
  Yeah, the CIA really focuses on aunties in their PJs posting Winnie the Pooh memes at 3AM.
  - Parcel7183 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - moose_man 4y ago
      Lol we're in 2023 and you're trying to use something from the late 60s-70s almost 50 years ago.
toomanyrichies 4y ago
https://archive.ph/tgC41 https://archive.ph/tgC41
Maursault 4y ago
Good. What's the problem?
- abudabi123 4y ago
  More police. Lower crime. Fewer lawyers needed down the line.
- credit_guy 4y ago
  The problem is that the definition of the modern state is the body that has the monopoly on violence. If another state encroaches on that, it is by definition an attack on the sovereignty of the first state.
  - Maursault 4y ago
    But... FBI arrested them rather than affirming their actions. What should the response have been? Retaliating against China?
TurkishPoptart 4y ago
>Officials in Ireland, Canada and the Netherlands have called on China to shut down similar operations in their countries. So we are politely asking the Chinese Communist Party to stop spying on us, rather than closing down these outposts ourselves. Is this a sustainble/durable option? Our open systems are simply a vulnerability for daring autocracies.
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  > So we are politely asking the Chinese Communist Party to stop spying on us, rather than closing down these outposts ourselves. I suspect that the countries involved have legal system which require a degree of evidence which may not be available (or which they may prefer not to reveal in the kind of process that would be required, given the possibility of resolving the problem without doing so) yet before forcibly taking action the way, e.g., the US just has, but there is no strict proof threshold for lodging a diplomatic complaint.
- Parcel7183 4y ago
  If the operations are this widespread in several countries that are within an intelligence alliance (Nine Eyes), surely there is some way to gather enough concrete evidence to prove this is actually happening? Physically can't imagine an intelligence operation that would endure the combined forces of some of the world's top intelligence agencies.
- 0xDEF 4y ago
  When some EU countries arrested Iranian assasins send to kill Iranian dissidents they just politely flew the assassins back to Iran with no other punishment. In my opinion the assassins should have been jailed for planned/attempted murder. Western countries are hilariously underprepared to deal with adversaries that are both sophisticated and brutal. Adversaries like China, Russia and Iran.
  - version_five 4y ago
    This is the "Demolition Man" problem. We asked them only know how to speak sternly, and when someone doesn't listen we have no other options.
l3mure 4y ago
Interested to see if they make anything stick, is this under the recent DOJ initiative [1]? That doesn't seem to have a great track record [2][3]. [1] https://web.archive.org/web/20210216044709/https://www.justice.gov/nsd/information-about-department-justice-s-china-initiative-and-compilation-china-related https://web.archive.org/web/20210216044709/https://www.justi... - linked in [2], though the original is apparently no longer available [2] https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/20/science/gang-chen-mit-china-initiative.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/20/science/gang-chen-mit-chi... - 'U.S. Drops Its Case Against M.I.T. Scientist Accused of Hiding China Links' [3] https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/16/nyregion/nypd-officer-china-spy-angwang.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/16/nyregion/nypd-officer-chi... - 'U.S. Asks to Drop Case Accusing N.Y.P.D. Officer of Spying for China'
mcv 4y ago
As the article briefly mentions, these sort of Chinese police outposts have been discovered in multiple countries. This issue was also in Dutch news one or two years ago. Apparently China uses these outposts to police Chinese citizens (and maybe their descendants?) living abroad, with the goal of instilling loyalty towards China. The Chinese government may also pressure their family in China in order to coerce compliance. It's basically mafia tactics applied by a government in order to control people who have left the country.

66 points by mikhael 4y ago

The article makes no mention of international law, or of extraterritoriality. Could they not find an appropriate expert to quote ?

dragonwriter 4y ago
> The article makes no mention of international law, or of extraterritoriality. Because neither is particularly relevant here; these are actions in places under simple US jurisdiction, by people under simple US jurisdiction, not by PRC diplomats and/or carried out in facilities that are PRC extraterritorial enclaves. EDIT: For the arrestees. For the non-arrested charged parties, I suppose an expert on international law and extraterritoriality could explain that there is no international law protecting people from charges for working in their own country to violate the laws of another country, though enforcement of those charges may be difficult so long as the charged parties remain in and protected by the government of China. But, I mean, it doesn’t really take an expert in international law and extraterritoriality to explain that, either.
- euroderf 4y ago
  I don't disagree. But I detect a whiff of hypocrisy on the part of American law enforcement, which often seems to have a different idea about its ability to act outside its borders. Very strong assertions of extraterritoriality. But, well, do as I say, not as I do.
  - mcv 4y ago
    You do have somewhat of a point here. The US is one of only two countries (and the only country that can make it stick) that sees any American or any person born in the US, as falling under US tax law, and requires them to file taxes in the US, even if they don't live there or work there. Banks across the world are required to enforce this and have special rules for "US Persons" or they're not allowed to do business with the US, which is understandably crippling for any bank. Because of this, even some people who feel like they have no connection with the US at all, may be unable to open a bank account anywhere unless they agree to file taxes in the US. So yes, the US also tries to exert power over people it considers American subjects well outside its jurisdiction. That doesn't excuse China intimidating and threatening Chinese people living abroad, though.
    - euroderf 4y ago
      Oh, I mean more than just tax filing requirements. Which (I can say as an ex-pat) are a massive PITA.

RedCondor 4y ago

[flagged]

d23 4y ago
They will have to present their evidence in court.
- SllX 4y ago
  Correct! A lot of people forget the big problem with “secret police” isn’t the “police” part, it’s the “secret” part.
kotaKat 4y ago
https://archive.is/wGdhy https://archive.is/wGdhy "The New York outpost, which was set up by the city of Fuzhou, is based in the offices of a Chinese community organization, the America Changle Association NY, according to the state-run China Youth Daily, which last year published a document listing various police outposts. Changle is a district in the city of Fuzhou. The article has since been deleted. Other addresses of Chinese police outposts match locations of private businesses, including Chinese restaurants and commercial associations." Here's an NGO independent investigation, if that helps, into these foreign service centers: https://safeguarddefenders.com/en/blog/230000-policing-expands https://safeguarddefenders.com/en/blog/230000-policing-expan...
- RedCondor 4y ago
  If this "About" page says "independence" to you, we simply live in different planets. https://safeguarddefenders.com/en/about-us#who-we-are https://safeguarddefenders.com/en/about-us#who-we-are

Parcel7183 4y ago

[flagged]

d23 4y ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
- Parcel7183 4y ago
  Not really? I'm just saying that this situation shouldn't be viewed from any kind of moral highground, because US organizations have engaged in (and continue to engage) in equally bad operations. The entire "America is under threat" narrative falls apart when you consider how much damage the US has done to the third world in general.
  - lazyeye 4y ago
    There should be a rule where advocates for countries that suppress all criticism and knowledge of their own bad behaviour, are allowed to talk about the behaviour of anyone else, particularly those countries that do allow free speech.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
moose_man 4y ago
Yeah, the CIA really focuses on aunties in their PJs posting Winnie the Pooh memes at 3AM.
- Parcel7183 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - moose_man 4y ago
    Lol we're in 2023 and you're trying to use something from the late 60s-70s almost 50 years ago.

toomanyrichies 4y ago

https://archive.ph/tgC41 https://archive.ph/tgC41

Maursault 4y ago

Good. What's the problem?

abudabi123 4y ago
More police. Lower crime. Fewer lawyers needed down the line.
credit_guy 4y ago
The problem is that the definition of the modern state is the body that has the monopoly on violence. If another state encroaches on that, it is by definition an attack on the sovereignty of the first state.
- Maursault 4y ago
  But... FBI arrested them rather than affirming their actions. What should the response have been? Retaliating against China?

TurkishPoptart 4y ago

>Officials in Ireland, Canada and the Netherlands have called on China to shut down similar operations in their countries. So we are politely asking the Chinese Communist Party to stop spying on us, rather than closing down these outposts ourselves. Is this a sustainble/durable option? Our open systems are simply a vulnerability for daring autocracies.

dragonwriter 4y ago
> So we are politely asking the Chinese Communist Party to stop spying on us, rather than closing down these outposts ourselves. I suspect that the countries involved have legal system which require a degree of evidence which may not be available (or which they may prefer not to reveal in the kind of process that would be required, given the possibility of resolving the problem without doing so) yet before forcibly taking action the way, e.g., the US just has, but there is no strict proof threshold for lodging a diplomatic complaint.
Parcel7183 4y ago
If the operations are this widespread in several countries that are within an intelligence alliance (Nine Eyes), surely there is some way to gather enough concrete evidence to prove this is actually happening? Physically can't imagine an intelligence operation that would endure the combined forces of some of the world's top intelligence agencies.
0xDEF 4y ago
When some EU countries arrested Iranian assasins send to kill Iranian dissidents they just politely flew the assassins back to Iran with no other punishment. In my opinion the assassins should have been jailed for planned/attempted murder. Western countries are hilariously underprepared to deal with adversaries that are both sophisticated and brutal. Adversaries like China, Russia and Iran.
- version_five 4y ago
  This is the "Demolition Man" problem. We asked them only know how to speak sternly, and when someone doesn't listen we have no other options.

l3mure 4y ago

Interested to see if they make anything stick, is this under the recent DOJ initiative [1]? That doesn't seem to have a great track record [2][3]. [1] https://web.archive.org/web/20210216044709/https://www.justice.gov/nsd/information-about-department-justice-s-china-initiative-and-compilation-china-related https://web.archive.org/web/20210216044709/https://www.justi... - linked in [2], though the original is apparently no longer available [2] https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/20/science/gang-chen-mit-china-initiative.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/20/science/gang-chen-mit-chi... - 'U.S. Drops Its Case Against M.I.T. Scientist Accused of Hiding China Links' [3] https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/16/nyregion/nypd-officer-china-spy-angwang.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/16/nyregion/nypd-officer-chi... - 'U.S. Asks to Drop Case Accusing N.Y.P.D. Officer of Spying for China'

mcv 4y ago

As the article briefly mentions, these sort of Chinese police outposts have been discovered in multiple countries. This issue was also in Dutch news one or two years ago. Apparently China uses these outposts to police Chinese citizens (and maybe their descendants?) living abroad, with the goal of instilling loyalty towards China. The Chinese government may also pressure their family in China in order to coerce compliance. It's basically mafia tactics applied by a government in order to control people who have left the country.