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VW, Rivian, Nissan, BMW lose access to U.S. EV tax credits
- mikestew 3y agoBought a new Hyundai Ioniq 5 on Friday. No EV tax credit for that one, but...fleet purchases still qualify regardless of make, and your company can buy as many as they like (that's my understanding, and probably not 100% correct). The outcome is that Hyundai buys the car, takes the EV tax credit off the price, then turns around and leases it to us. So despite the Ioniq 5 not qualifying for the credit, we got the credit in a more roundabout way (or arguably less roundabout, as I don't have to deal with it at tax time). In summary, lease the Hyundai and get $7500 taken off the price, then buy out the lease after the first payment[0]. I'm not sure when this deal ends, maybe May? (And if you're buying a Hyundai, Hyundai calls it a "lease rebate", but they're really just giving you the tax credit that Hyundai receives.) Point I'm driving at is maybe there's yet another hooping-jumping method to squeeze out a tax credit? EDIT: what I'm referring to is lightly referenced at the end of TFA: "Treasury in December said EVs ineligible for the $7,500 consumer tax credit could qualify for a commercial leasing $7,500 credit." [0] We were going to pay cash anyway, but it is my understanding that you can still get a bank loan to buy out the lease. See your dealer, bank, and Reddit for details.
- greeneggs 3y agoI don't understand why everyone doesn't do this. I'd buy a Tesla if I could get a $7500 credit (I'm income limited).
- HDThoreaun 3y agoyou can
- mixmastamyk 3y agoT recently dropped their prices as well.
- mabbo 3y agoA bit off topic, but how are you liking the Ioniq 5? I'm on a "2 year waiting list" with my local dealer for an Ioniq 5. It has 200 people on the list, and he got 8 years in the last year. Still a "2 year waiting list" though, even if you've been on it a year already. It's apparently quite a popular car.
- WorldMaker 3y agoA 2-year waiting list may also indicate a bad local dealer that isn't even trying to sell the car as much as or more than it indicates a popular car. Only getting 8 cars in the last year sounds maybe like a choice to have as low of stock as possible in the dealership as much as it sounds like a supply issue. You may want to consider checking neighboring dealerships if the waiting list is not shrinking on a car that has been out in mass production for as long as the Ioniq 5 has been.
- mikestew 3y agoMy assumption is the OP is in Canada, where various online forums seem to indicate that this is the way it is for the whole country. But, yeah, if OP is in the U. S., look elsewhere. There are dealers in Seattle with rows of them.
- mabbo 3y agoI am indeed in Canada. I wonder what it would cost to import a car from the US. I'd happily do a road trip to Seattle to get an Ioniq 5 right now.
- mikestew 3y agoI've known folks that have gone the other direction to buy motorcycles in colors the U. S. didn't get. There used to be at least one Honda dealer in Vancouver that would have the paperwork done up, and a MPH speedometer ready for you to show customs. Prices were reasonable, as I recall. But motorcycles have a lot fewer things that need to meet safety regulations specific to a country. If this were a thing going US->Canada, I imagine some Canadian would have posted to the Ioniq 5 Reddit, or https://www.ioniqforum.com https://www.ioniqforum.com. I do not recall seeing any such post. Probably wouldn't hurt to ask around.
- geoelectric 3y agoI just got an Ioniq 5 a little over a month ago and did pay with cash (ie no tax credit). The quoted lease interest rate was an insane 8%+ even with an 825 credit rating and I didn’t realize you could simply buy out a lease early like a regular loan until well after the purchase. I didn’t think the credit made a difference to my purchase decision because my income phased it out anyway, but I hadn’t realized you could back door it through the lease with an immediate buyout. That’s a really neat trick, and if I’d known that I’d have paid a lot more attention to whether they were offering that $7500-back lease deal when I bought mine. I’m not even bitter. The HI5 is well worth the full price I dropped for the Limited if only for that beautiful AR HUD it has; HUDs have been a #1 must-have safety feature for me ever since buying a Genesis with one years ago. But props to you for figuring out how to end run around the process and get the HI5 and a great deal!
- mikestew 3y agoWe, too, were fully prepared to pay the full price without the credit, but I had spent way too much time surfing the Ioniq forum before purchase. Like you, had I only found out later, I wouldn’t even be bitter. The car is worth it even for $7500 more. Congrats on the purchase. Our Limited AWD has us tickled.
- Night_Thastus 3y agoI'm more-or-less familiar with what a tax credit is, but what is a commercial lease? "Treasury in December said EVs ineligible for the $7,500 consumer tax credit could qualify for a commercial leasing $7,500 credit." What does that mean for a consumer wanting to buy an EV?
- mikestew 3y agoFrom one (me) who bought a Hyundai in the past week: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35604611 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35604611 Whether, and how, it applies to other makes I do not know.
- yardie 3y agoIt means they will have to take a lease instead of paying by cash or financing with credit. It's a loophole that Kia and Hyundai is trying to steer customers to. Their last quarter was stupendously bad.
- standardUser 3y agoI hate to see the Nissan Leaf lose an incentive because I still think it's the most accessible name brand EV on the market. I imagine the Chinese part of the supply chain is what keeps Leaf's so cheap. And though I do mostly support efforts to grow the EV industry in the US, I care a lot more about ending the sale of new IC cars.
- local_crmdgeon 3y agoWhat does the Leaf have that the Bolt doesn't? The Bolt uses a standard charge port, is larger, has superior range, and has active battery thermal mgmt.
- mikestew 3y agoWhat does the Leaf have that the Bolt doesn't? CarPlay: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35573345 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35573345 It's why we bought a Hyundai instead of waiting for an EV Chevy Blazer.
- BoorishBears 3y agoThe Bolt has CarPlay, the Chevy Blazer isn't even out yet.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- local_crmdgeon 3y agoThe Bolt has wireless CarPlay and Qi charging
- lotsofpulp 3y agoI still would not buy it just to avoid giving money to GM due to their stance on Carplay/Android Auto.
- 3y ago
- hinata08 3y agoI don't get why we need to work with the USA anyway. There is already business to do with the middle east and south east Asia. USA doesn't want European companies anyway. They have the FCPA that only applies to European companies, unique bumper regulations for cars (but no amber turn indicator and unlimited consumption), the buy American act. We should stop wasting time selling stuff to them, as they don't want. And we should stop relying on American companies like Microsoft or Apple, ad they don't like business. Oh, and cut them off from international banking. They want to clamp down on tax haven. And well, states like Delaware are the world's best tax haven. If the laws were consistent, we should cut them off.
- eganist 3y ago> Oh, and cut them off from international banking. How do you propose?
- hinata08 3y agoThe OECD had a list of List of Unco-operative Tax Havens, that used to contain several European nations. List Deleware on this
- steveBK123 3y agoHow does FCPA only apply to European companies? (it doesn't)
- hunglee2 3y agoCollateral damage of hostile de-globalisation. European, South Korean and Japanese EV manufacturers face a de facto lock out of US market. Outcompeted already in China, there may not be many other obvious markets to go
- vkou 3y agoThat's always been the gameplan for free trade. Open markets where your country has a competitive advantage, subsidies and tariffs and closed markets when it doesn't.
- mschuster91 3y agoWe gave China free access to our markets for decades. China, in turn, has never given any foreign entity free access to their market, not without paying bribes at least. You always have to have majority Chinese ownership in your joint company. It's not surprising that the US and EU are slowly waking up to just how bad of a clusterfuck they maneuvered themselves into and starting to cut out toxic dependencies.
- vkou 3y ago> We gave China free access to our markets for decades. I comment about the nature of 'free markets' in the general (but more specifically in the context of 'peer'-nation trade between the context of US-EU), and someone inevitably jumps in with an off-topic gripe about China. China this, China that, it's like Beelzebub. Say the word 'trade' three times, and the thread's in for a derailment.
- mschuster91 3y ago> I comment about the nature of 'free markets' in the general (and especially in the context of US-EU), and someone inevitably jumps in with an off-topic gripe about China. We are talking about the US sanctioning Chinese battery supply chains specifically, to quote TFA: > The rules are aimed at weaning the United States off dependence on China for EV battery supply chains and are part of President Joe Biden's effort to make 50% of U.S. new vehicle sales by 2030 EVs or PHEVs.
- concerned_ 3y ago[flagged]
- abeppu 3y agoI wonder what the income distribution on buyers looks like for these different companies, and what proportion of their buyers would be unable to use the tax credit regardless? E.g. if proportion p of your buyers can't use the tax credit and relying on foreign battery production reduces the sticker price at least (1-p) * $7500, you would be net saving your purchasers money if you keep the foreign battery sources?
- gaoshan 3y agoThe price of EVs is the only thing keeping me from replacing my 13 year old car. Everything I would consider buying is just slightly too high for my budget and needs.
- rnk 3y agogm bolt?
- ActorNightly 3y agoIts still a 27k car. You get more with a gas car at that price range. EVs are purely novelty item at this point. An EV vehicle is fundamentally simpler than a gas car in terms of parts required, and should be cheaper to make and way cheaper to buy new. Also you would see way more functional tech in regards to EV, like for example, cheaper battery packs that don't offer as much range and are power limited, but keep the price low. Or trunk mounted gas generators with fuel tanks for longer trips.
- hedora 3y agoThe total cost of ownership is much lower for EVs than gas cars though. I just spent over $100 filling up the gas tank of our backup car. We used to fill it about once a week. That's $5200 a year in gasoline at current prices. So, if the EV lasts 6 years (ignoring the discounted value of money over time, and the ever increasing cost of gasoline), it costs negative $4200 vs. whatever the retail price of the ICE car is.
- robertlagrant 3y agoThat's only if you fill up once a week. Anyone who does some remote working or any of a number of other mitigations is going to find an EV very expensive. Which is annoying, because I want one.
- WorldMaker 3y ago
- initramfs 3y agoThe U.S should loan Elio Motors to produce their electric car and offer a $7500 tax credit. Then the cost of it would be $7500 after rebates. If the company can't deliver, The U.S could seize the company and sell the car themselves. They already sell a public-health option for insurance. Then they could copy the solar panels from Aptera and add those to the Elio's roof.
- throwawaymaths 3y agoI doubt the US wants to be in the business of selling cars. Definitely not its strong suit
- initramfs 3y agoIt would serve the public interest, as there aren't many affordable cars under $20,000. Chevy got out of the Spark production last year. If the economy can't produce enough jobs to afford rent, how do people expect to get to work? The Cash for Clunkers program at least got dangerously old cars off the road. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Car_Allowance_Rebate_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Car_Allowance_Rebate_System
- RegularOpossum 3y agoElio can't still be around can it?
- initramfs 3y agoIt lives: https://www.eliomotors.com/ https://www.eliomotors.com/
- mustacheemperor 3y agoI remember my dad put a preorder deposit in for this when I was in high school, with his idea being it would be the perfect vehicle for me to commute around a college campus several years later. I am now approaching 30 and from what I recall of Elio's website when I looked at it then, it looks like they've made a lot of progress in offering the vehicle in additional colors.
- pornel 3y agoDo these incentives actually make any difference to manufacturers? AFAIK they're all selling the cars as fast as they can make them.
- qwytw 3y agoHigher margins? At least for those who qualify
- gumballindie 3y agoIf anything, not buying a BMW or VW saves you from plenty of headaches. These days buying asian means you get higher quality, but perhaps less bling, and more value (unless replacing cars as often as phones is your thing). More standard options tho and a slightly better pricing.
- PaulWaldman 3y agoDo raw materials need to be sourced from the United States? Or can raw materials be imported, but the batteries need to be manufactured in the United States? Re-resourcing such a major component is a massive undertaking. Will the automakers adjust their supply chains when a change in the political climate can negate their efforts?