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Exactly this. When Apple tried "Premium Advertising" without sharing any Personas 10 years ago, it failed as it was expensive and didn't allow targeted marketin

Exactly this. When Apple tried "Premium Advertising" without sharing any Personas 10 years ago, it failed as it was expensive and didn't allow targeted marketing. In the meantime Meta learnt that they can't allow others to extract their precious userdata and need to protect their position by clustering data into Personas for advertisers to select from. Now Apple reenters the ad-business, using the very same scheme as Google/Meta (maintaining Personas based on userdata they safeguard) but with an unprecedented set of profiling data of its users, as they collect data on the Apple-ID level, spanning from positioning data over types of apps used and stocks you're watching to actual purchases in the physical world. If people consider Meta/Google's practice as spying, I don't know what they expect Apple's Ads to be. Their T&C already describe that they create a persona from your data to display "Ads relevant to you", just like Meta/Google does...

GeekyBear 4y ago
> If people consider Meta/Google's practice as spying Maintaining shadow profiles on people who aren't even customers and buying user data from third parties isn't spying on people? Again, it's not the part where you sell ads that is problematic.
- rickdeckard 4y ago
  Agreed. But USING data of your transactions and your third party apps to refine your profile is not spying? Both is done for the sake of understanding who you are in order to sell ads to you. Is one "spying" and the other "a little bit of spying"?
  - GeekyBear 4y ago
    Are we talking about something like Amazon having a record of things I have purchased from Amazon? Or are we talking about Google buying a copy of my credit card transaction data? Because one of those is a perfectly normal part of any business relationship, and the other is absolutely not normal and not acceptable. I mean, Amazon stopped mailing receipts with line items of your purchases to Gmail customers because Google was maintaining a purchase history for transactions that they had nothing to do with. > Google’s secret page records everything you’ve bought online https://www.komando.com/shopping/googles-secret-page-records-everything-youve-bought-online/567885/ https://www.komando.com/shopping/googles-secret-page-records...
    - rickdeckard 4y ago
      We talk about all of this, yes. I'm not defending either of these practices, I'm asking how it is any different to what Apple does. So Apple forcing all third parties on the iOS platform to use Apple's payments APIs to process payments and thus being able to track what you've purchased inside of any third party app they have nothing to do with, is that comparable to what Google does on the Gmail platform?
      - GeekyBear 4y ago
        > I'm asking how it is any different to what Apple does. How is a first party business relationship with your own customer different than buying a copy of people's credit card transaction data, spying on receipts emailed by other businesses, turning on location tracking by default, paying children to give root access to their device (Onavo), setting up user tracking on a huge swath of websites (Google Analytics, Facebook Like Button), and the other sorts relentless spying tactics that we have seen from companies with a surveillance capitalism business model? > Since 2016, Facebook has been paying users ages 13 to 35 up to $20 per month plus referral fees to sell their privacy by installing the iOS or Android “Facebook Research” app. Facebook even asked users to screenshot their Amazon order history page. https://techcrunch.com/2019/01/29/facebook-project-atlas/ https://techcrunch.com/2019/01/29/facebook-project-atlas/

GeekyBear 4y ago

> If people consider Meta/Google's practice as spying Maintaining shadow profiles on people who aren't even customers and buying user data from third parties isn't spying on people? Again, it's not the part where you sell ads that is problematic.

rickdeckard 4y ago
Agreed. But USING data of your transactions and your third party apps to refine your profile is not spying? Both is done for the sake of understanding who you are in order to sell ads to you. Is one "spying" and the other "a little bit of spying"?
- GeekyBear 4y ago
  Are we talking about something like Amazon having a record of things I have purchased from Amazon? Or are we talking about Google buying a copy of my credit card transaction data? Because one of those is a perfectly normal part of any business relationship, and the other is absolutely not normal and not acceptable. I mean, Amazon stopped mailing receipts with line items of your purchases to Gmail customers because Google was maintaining a purchase history for transactions that they had nothing to do with. > Google’s secret page records everything you’ve bought online https://www.komando.com/shopping/googles-secret-page-records-everything-youve-bought-online/567885/ https://www.komando.com/shopping/googles-secret-page-records...
  - rickdeckard 4y ago
    We talk about all of this, yes. I'm not defending either of these practices, I'm asking how it is any different to what Apple does. So Apple forcing all third parties on the iOS platform to use Apple's payments APIs to process payments and thus being able to track what you've purchased inside of any third party app they have nothing to do with, is that comparable to what Google does on the Gmail platform?
    - GeekyBear 4y ago
      > I'm asking how it is any different to what Apple does. How is a first party business relationship with your own customer different than buying a copy of people's credit card transaction data, spying on receipts emailed by other businesses, turning on location tracking by default, paying children to give root access to their device (Onavo), setting up user tracking on a huge swath of websites (Google Analytics, Facebook Like Button), and the other sorts relentless spying tactics that we have seen from companies with a surveillance capitalism business model? > Since 2016, Facebook has been paying users ages 13 to 35 up to $20 per month plus referral fees to sell their privacy by installing the iOS or Android “Facebook Research” app. Facebook even asked users to screenshot their Amazon order history page. https://techcrunch.com/2019/01/29/facebook-project-atlas/ https://techcrunch.com/2019/01/29/facebook-project-atlas/