4 ms·

> These people belong in gaol. Luckily in the US, being very wrong about something, even when it's very consequential, is not illegal. We'd have a much less en

> These people belong in gaol. Luckily in the US, being very wrong about something, even when it's very consequential, is not illegal. We'd have a much less entrepreneurial society, and a lot less open, free debate, if it were. Lucy Calkins did not force people to follow her methods, she persuaded them through teaching and advocacy. FWIW I think a lot of affected students would have a reasonable civil case against Teacher's College, and other places where teachers were taught this nonsense, for harms done. If medical doctors were routinely taught something wrong and contrary to the published research at medical schools, we'd probably be thinking about a similar suit. But we don't generally put teachers and doctors in the same bucket; for one thing, teachers don't take a hippocratic oath.

Khaine 3y ago
This isn't a free speech issue. This is a matter of fraud. Claiming you have methods of teaching literacy when you don't is fraud. Lying or pressuring congressman to get government grants is equally fraud.
- setgree 3y ago
  Fraud is generally defined as intentionally deceiving others for personal or financial gain. I think it’s pretty clear here that these people were wrong, and arguably deceiving themselves, but certainly not intentionally deceiving others (which implies knowing true facts and withholding them). And I also think their main aim was to improve the lives of children, not personal enrichment. Again, not everything that’s wrong or bad is illegal.
  - xapata 3y ago
    Whether they knew or not is something for the courts to decide. A prominent example of this determination is Dominion v Fox, currently on trial.
  - Khaine 3y ago
    Either they were negligent or they were incompetent. In either case, these people should in no way be in positions to advocate for teaching methods or teachers themselves. Yet, no one has been held accountable. There has not been any reckoning for that teacher who ignored best practice because 'fuck bush', and all the others who advocated for cueing. Lucy Caulkins has made millions peddling techniques that have ruined the lives of 1000s of kids. If this were a drug, you would be demanding the company be out of business.
brodouevencode 3y ago
Nit: > If medical doctors were routinely taught something wrong and contrary to the published research at medical schools, we'd probably be thinking about a similar suit But we don't see one with respect to popular nutritional advice, which is in a very dismal state with the old food pyramid being promoted as the way and no one can agree on anything because nothing is reproducible. So, maybe not the best analogy.
- nostromo 3y ago
  Well, the old food pyramid hasn't been used in almost 20 years now.
  - xapata 3y ago
    > hasn't been used What has it been replaced with? I try to keep up with health literature and am not familiar with the food pyramid's replacement. Perhaps it hasn't received as much advertisement as the food pyramid did.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - avhon1 3y ago
      The USDA Food Pyramid was replaced in 2005 with MyPyramid. http://web.archive.org/web/20050830024356/http://mypyramid.gov/ http://web.archive.org/web/20050830024356/http://mypyramid.g... In 2011, the pyramid was done away with altogether and replaced with MyPlate, which remains the USDA's current nutritional guide graphic. https://www.myplate.gov/ https://www.myplate.gov/
  - toast0 3y ago
    The food pyramid and its replacements come from the USDA. They're there to sell farm products. And maybe help with nutrition for farm workers.
xapata 3y ago
> Luckily in the US, being very wrong about something, even when it's very consequential, is not illegal. It is for certain professions. And the criteria for civil liability are much lighter than that for criminal liability. All professionals should carry liability insurance. And, they should operate under the protection of a limited liability company or something similar.
hn_version_0023 3y ago
> for one thing, teachers don't take a hippocratic oath. Well, you've hit upon a thing I'd like to see teachers actually do! Nice, thanks for that.

Khaine 3y ago

This isn't a free speech issue. This is a matter of fraud. Claiming you have methods of teaching literacy when you don't is fraud. Lying or pressuring congressman to get government grants is equally fraud.

setgree 3y ago
Fraud is generally defined as intentionally deceiving others for personal or financial gain. I think it’s pretty clear here that these people were wrong, and arguably deceiving themselves, but certainly not intentionally deceiving others (which implies knowing true facts and withholding them). And I also think their main aim was to improve the lives of children, not personal enrichment. Again, not everything that’s wrong or bad is illegal.
- xapata 3y ago
  Whether they knew or not is something for the courts to decide. A prominent example of this determination is Dominion v Fox, currently on trial.
- Khaine 3y ago
  Either they were negligent or they were incompetent. In either case, these people should in no way be in positions to advocate for teaching methods or teachers themselves. Yet, no one has been held accountable. There has not been any reckoning for that teacher who ignored best practice because 'fuck bush', and all the others who advocated for cueing. Lucy Caulkins has made millions peddling techniques that have ruined the lives of 1000s of kids. If this were a drug, you would be demanding the company be out of business.

brodouevencode 3y ago

Nit: > If medical doctors were routinely taught something wrong and contrary to the published research at medical schools, we'd probably be thinking about a similar suit But we don't see one with respect to popular nutritional advice, which is in a very dismal state with the old food pyramid being promoted as the way and no one can agree on anything because nothing is reproducible. So, maybe not the best analogy.

nostromo 3y ago
Well, the old food pyramid hasn't been used in almost 20 years now.
- xapata 3y ago
  > hasn't been used What has it been replaced with? I try to keep up with health literature and am not familiar with the food pyramid's replacement. Perhaps it hasn't received as much advertisement as the food pyramid did.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - avhon1 3y ago
    The USDA Food Pyramid was replaced in 2005 with MyPyramid. http://web.archive.org/web/20050830024356/http://mypyramid.gov/ http://web.archive.org/web/20050830024356/http://mypyramid.g... In 2011, the pyramid was done away with altogether and replaced with MyPlate, which remains the USDA's current nutritional guide graphic. https://www.myplate.gov/ https://www.myplate.gov/
- toast0 3y ago
  The food pyramid and its replacements come from the USDA. They're there to sell farm products. And maybe help with nutrition for farm workers.

xapata 3y ago

> Luckily in the US, being very wrong about something, even when it's very consequential, is not illegal. It is for certain professions. And the criteria for civil liability are much lighter than that for criminal liability. All professionals should carry liability insurance. And, they should operate under the protection of a limited liability company or something similar.

hn_version_0023 3y ago

> for one thing, teachers don't take a hippocratic oath. Well, you've hit upon a thing I'd like to see teachers actually do! Nice, thanks for that.