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That’s exactly my point though - if you are aiming for robust operation at a wide temperature range, lithium batteries are actually a worse choice than lead aci

That’s exactly my point though - if you are aiming for robust operation at a wide temperature range, lithium batteries are actually a worse choice than lead acid batteries. Lead acid batteries require little to no temperature control, just some charging rate and voltage control depending on temperature.

LinuxBender 4y ago
I wasn't actually disagreeing with you, just pointing out that at worst the companies are lying by omission. That said I don't think there is a one size fits all. LiFePo4 are great where weight matters more than temperature such as boats, RV's or anything that is mobile. The power used by the heating pads in some cases is offset by the higher capacity and ability to maintain voltage at lower charge state. For off-grid buildings lead/AGM is fine especially if not depending on solar and perhaps instead keeping a charge from a water turbine from a river or stream. AGM have significantly less charge cycles than LiFePo4 and the disparity is growing more every year. China went both Sodium and LifePo4 due to logistical and shipping issues with some of the materials required in Li-ion. Li-ion batteries also have heating pads. I can't see AGM being viable in solar farms due to the low charge cycle ratings. Either that or whoever the manufacture is will be very happy as those batteries will have to be cycled out quickly. I have 4 AGM batteries for a few of my inverters that need higher surge capacity in a smaller space and the UPS driver remembers me for it. Now they make me get the batteries out of their truck. Since I keep the AGM's fully charged with commercial power the charge cycles are less of an issue for me and thus the TCO/ROI is acceptable. LiFePo4 current ratings are catching up though. Now I can get one that has a 200+ Amp discharge rating and I am told there will be one with a 300AH/320 Amp discharge rating soon. I am most curious about what comes next. The 3D printed solid state batteries look very interesting. 50% of the weight for the same capacity, higher C rating, significantly safer. Mass production is just starting for those so time will tell I guess.
- eldaisfish 4y ago
  not disagreeing with you either :) The killer feature of lead acid designs is cost and availability. In many applications, they are significantly cheaper. The chance cycle issue is real and i’m glad you brought that up. For some applications, they make sense. One is a low power draw solar-powered website. Lead acid batteries also outlast most lithium chemistries by several years. These batteries have been around for decades now are are absolutely everywhere and the voltages are standardized. that alone is a significant advantage. Case in point - i run a UPS using my old 12 V car battery. Granted, i cannot keep this indoors but it works well. Similar to what you said - off-grid or backup power is the mainstay of lead acid designs. almost every electrical substation out there uses lead acid for backup power.

LinuxBender 4y ago

I wasn't actually disagreeing with you, just pointing out that at worst the companies are lying by omission. That said I don't think there is a one size fits all. LiFePo4 are great where weight matters more than temperature such as boats, RV's or anything that is mobile. The power used by the heating pads in some cases is offset by the higher capacity and ability to maintain voltage at lower charge state. For off-grid buildings lead/AGM is fine especially if not depending on solar and perhaps instead keeping a charge from a water turbine from a river or stream. AGM have significantly less charge cycles than LiFePo4 and the disparity is growing more every year. China went both Sodium and LifePo4 due to logistical and shipping issues with some of the materials required in Li-ion. Li-ion batteries also have heating pads. I can't see AGM being viable in solar farms due to the low charge cycle ratings. Either that or whoever the manufacture is will be very happy as those batteries will have to be cycled out quickly. I have 4 AGM batteries for a few of my inverters that need higher surge capacity in a smaller space and the UPS driver remembers me for it. Now they make me get the batteries out of their truck. Since I keep the AGM's fully charged with commercial power the charge cycles are less of an issue for me and thus the TCO/ROI is acceptable. LiFePo4 current ratings are catching up though. Now I can get one that has a 200+ Amp discharge rating and I am told there will be one with a 300AH/320 Amp discharge rating soon. I am most curious about what comes next. The 3D printed solid state batteries look very interesting. 50% of the weight for the same capacity, higher C rating, significantly safer. Mass production is just starting for those so time will tell I guess.

eldaisfish 4y ago
not disagreeing with you either :) The killer feature of lead acid designs is cost and availability. In many applications, they are significantly cheaper. The chance cycle issue is real and i’m glad you brought that up. For some applications, they make sense. One is a low power draw solar-powered website. Lead acid batteries also outlast most lithium chemistries by several years. These batteries have been around for decades now are are absolutely everywhere and the voltages are standardized. that alone is a significant advantage. Case in point - i run a UPS using my old 12 V car battery. Granted, i cannot keep this indoors but it works well. Similar to what you said - off-grid or backup power is the mainstay of lead acid designs. almost every electrical substation out there uses lead acid for backup power.