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> What a wonderful world. It's totally within our capabilities and no one need suffer. I get really scared when I hear anyone promise utopia. Literally every l

> What a wonderful world. It's totally within our capabilities and no one need suffer. I get really scared when I hear anyone promise utopia. Literally every large-scale society that did turned into a hellscape after a while, and the idea itself never worked. There was always someone who didn't buy into the idea, and they were blamed for why it didn't work. "If only those people were gone, then this would work and we'd be happy." So millions die or are sent to the gulag or whatever it's called, and the idea is still not working. China no longer promises its citizens a utopia. All they promise is a country that is powerful on the world stage. They're getting there, but it's still happening via exploitation. And the back alleys of Beijing still ring with abject poverty.

chadcmulligan 4y ago
Interesting, China has managed to lift a large proportion of its citizens in a very short time. I wasn't suggesting a Utopia, merely raising the bar so the minimum level is better than it is now, surely that should be the goal of every advanced country. The current levels of poverty are negatively influencing the next generation.
- TimTheTinker 4y ago
  > China has managed to lift a large proportion of its citizens in a very short time You're conveniently ignoring the cultural revolution, which caused an ideological purity spiral resulting in millions dead. China only began to prosper when they relaxed their economic policies and began to allow property/business ownership and international trade (especially with the West) back in.
- ertian 4y ago
  Poverty is not eliminated in China, at all. The fact that they lifted a lot of people out of poverty doesn't necessarily mean they can lift all people out of poverty. Nobody else has achieved that. It's not as easy as you make out. Also: the way they lifted all those people out of poverty was basically by freeing them to lift themselves out of poverty, by adopting an essentially capitalist system. You could say: they simply stopped holding people in poverty.

chadcmulligan 4y ago

Interesting, China has managed to lift a large proportion of its citizens in a very short time. I wasn't suggesting a Utopia, merely raising the bar so the minimum level is better than it is now, surely that should be the goal of every advanced country. The current levels of poverty are negatively influencing the next generation.

TimTheTinker 4y ago
> China has managed to lift a large proportion of its citizens in a very short time You're conveniently ignoring the cultural revolution, which caused an ideological purity spiral resulting in millions dead. China only began to prosper when they relaxed their economic policies and began to allow property/business ownership and international trade (especially with the West) back in.
ertian 4y ago
Poverty is not eliminated in China, at all. The fact that they lifted a lot of people out of poverty doesn't necessarily mean they can lift all people out of poverty. Nobody else has achieved that. It's not as easy as you make out. Also: the way they lifted all those people out of poverty was basically by freeing them to lift themselves out of poverty, by adopting an essentially capitalist system. You could say: they simply stopped holding people in poverty.