5 ms·

> This ML stuff makes a humble web dev like myself feel like a dog trying to read Tolstoy. Just like any discussion between advanced web devs would make any hu

by ikurei 4y ago

> This ML stuff makes a humble web dev like myself feel like a dog trying to read Tolstoy. Just like any discussion between advanced web devs would make any humble woodworker feel? And just like any discussion between advanced woodworkers would make a humble web dev feel? "It's really simple, they're just using a No. 7 jointer plane with a high-angle frog and a PM-V11 blade to flatten those curly birch boards, then a No. 4 smoother plane with a Norris-type adjuster and a toothed blade for the final pass." Whut? "You could use Webpack to bundle your HTML, CSS and Babel-transpiled TypeScript 5 down to shim-included Ecmascript 4", "They're just using OAuth2 authentication with Passport.js and JWT tokens, which easily gets you CSRF protection", "Our e-learning platform uses LMS.js and xAPI.js, plus SCORM for course packaging and Moodle as the LMS backend.", ... There was a time you didn't know what any of that meant. Just because you don't know what the words mean shouldn't make it sound difficult. Not saying AI is easy, just that the jargon is not a good indication of difficulty and we should know better than to be so easily mystified.

birdyrooster 4y ago
I love your analysis.
SpaceL10n 4y ago
Web devs have become blue collar!? =P Great idea, actually. I do hope for a curriculum that enables kids on the trade school path to learn more about programming. Why not Master/Journeyman/Apprentice style learning for web dev??
- wnolens 4y ago
  That's kind of how I think about bootcamps pumping out web devs. They're like trade schools, teaching you just enough fundamentals to know how to use existing tools.
  - ikurei 4y ago
    I kind of agree, but I'd add that I don't think it's a bad thing.
  - tracker1 4y ago
    Mostly agree... though I don't think the bootcamps get enough fundamentals in. Not to mention that it takes the type of person that will go above and beyond what has been assigned to succeed trying to be a productive employee in the space. I'm self-taught and the first years of my career spent countless hours reading, practicing and solving problems. I still spend a good 10-15 hours a week reading and exploring software development and try to at least keep up with what's out there. In the end, the best you can do is be aware of what, or even that options are out there. I can't imagine starting out today...
brycedriesenga 4y ago
Hey, guys. Hey. Ready to talk plate processing and residue transport plate funneling? Why don't we start with joust jambs? Hey, why not? Plates and jousts. Can we couple them? Hell, yeah, we can. Want to know how? Get this. Proprietary to McMillan. Only us. Ready? We fit Donnely nut spacing grip grids and splay-flexed brace columns against beam-fastened derrick husk nuts and girdle plate Jerries, while plate flex tandems press task apparati of ten vertipin-plated pan traps at every maiden clamp plate packet. Knuckle couplers plate alternating sprams from the t-nut to the SKN to the chim line. Yeah. That is the McMillan way. And it's just another day at the office.
- SanderNL 4y ago
  Talk dirty to me!
  - intelVISA 3y ago
    runtime polymorphism
- therein 4y ago
  Just tell me do we need a turbo encabulator or not?
  - nullsense 3y ago
    I'll take 2
- Rzor 4y ago
  This post is double great and I will never forgive Amazon for canceling that show. For those that don't know this is from a show called Patriot. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_(TV_series) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_(TV_series) Scene: https://youtube.com/watch?v=-F-IHvF5OCA https://youtube.com/watch?v=-F-IHvF5OCA
  - trentnelson 3y ago
    I remember seeing someone link to that scene recently as a joke on Twitter (about Twitter trying to explain Twitter Blue). Within a few days I’d watched the entire series… absolutely phenomenal show. Edit: ah I actually saw the prior scene where Leslie was explaining to John what he expected (which is the setup for the linked bit): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7Do2tlYLhs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7Do2tlYLhs
f1codz 4y ago
You make a good point. Except that a number of these concepts and tooling in the ML world have been slingshotted into the forefront in a relatively short time and it has been hard to play catch up. For eg. - someone said "frozen Vicuna" below - what does that mean?
- idkyall 4y ago
  Vicuna is a specific open source AI LLM: https://ai.plainenglish.io/vicuna-the-unparalleled-open-source-ai-model-for-local-computer-installation-334c693c4931?gi=4231ce798b9a https://ai.plainenglish.io/vicuna-the-unparalleled-open-sour...
ttul 4y ago
The thing is, machine learning sorta requires a few math prerequisites: linear algebra, differential equations, and to some degree vector calculus. Most web developers don’t have this background.
- craigching 4y ago
  If you want to understand the theory, that's true. If you want to develop an intuitive understanding without having to understand all the nuts and bolts (and I understand that can be a big ask for how some people learn/understand), give this a try: https://karpathy.ai/zero-to-hero.html https://karpathy.ai/zero-to-hero.html
  - akiselev 4y ago
    The irony is Karpathy presents the limit/epsilon definition of derivatives in the first half hour (quite well IMO and he never actually says “epsilon”) which is very much a nuts and bolts kind of explanation in calculus. That said, when most people say differential equations they’re usually thinking of analytical solutions which is very much not necessary for practical ML.
    - idiotsecant 4y ago
      I would say the limit epsilon derivative is exactly the sort of thing grandparent post is talking about. It's quite intuitive and doesn't require hardly any mathematical foundation at all, other than basic geometry and algebra. You can understand topics that build on that simple concept without understanding the more formal derivative definitions.
    - boppo1 3y ago
      I dunno, I just watched it and he almost immediately throws out the formality of the delta-epsilon definition and starts using infinitesimals. Thank god.
tracker1 4y ago
Okay, I won't mention how much is wrong in the webdev statement... :-D

by ikurei 4y ago

birdyrooster 4y ago

I love your analysis.

SpaceL10n 4y ago

Web devs have become blue collar!? =P Great idea, actually. I do hope for a curriculum that enables kids on the trade school path to learn more about programming. Why not Master/Journeyman/Apprentice style learning for web dev??

wnolens 4y ago
That's kind of how I think about bootcamps pumping out web devs. They're like trade schools, teaching you just enough fundamentals to know how to use existing tools.
- ikurei 4y ago
  I kind of agree, but I'd add that I don't think it's a bad thing.
- tracker1 4y ago
  Mostly agree... though I don't think the bootcamps get enough fundamentals in. Not to mention that it takes the type of person that will go above and beyond what has been assigned to succeed trying to be a productive employee in the space. I'm self-taught and the first years of my career spent countless hours reading, practicing and solving problems. I still spend a good 10-15 hours a week reading and exploring software development and try to at least keep up with what's out there. In the end, the best you can do is be aware of what, or even that options are out there. I can't imagine starting out today...

brycedriesenga 4y ago

Hey, guys. Hey. Ready to talk plate processing and residue transport plate funneling? Why don't we start with joust jambs? Hey, why not? Plates and jousts. Can we couple them? Hell, yeah, we can. Want to know how? Get this. Proprietary to McMillan. Only us. Ready? We fit Donnely nut spacing grip grids and splay-flexed brace columns against beam-fastened derrick husk nuts and girdle plate Jerries, while plate flex tandems press task apparati of ten vertipin-plated pan traps at every maiden clamp plate packet. Knuckle couplers plate alternating sprams from the t-nut to the SKN to the chim line. Yeah. That is the McMillan way. And it's just another day at the office.

SanderNL 4y ago
Talk dirty to me!
- intelVISA 3y ago
  runtime polymorphism
therein 4y ago
Just tell me do we need a turbo encabulator or not?
- nullsense 3y ago
  I'll take 2
Rzor 4y ago
This post is double great and I will never forgive Amazon for canceling that show. For those that don't know this is from a show called Patriot. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_(TV_series) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_(TV_series) Scene: https://youtube.com/watch?v=-F-IHvF5OCA https://youtube.com/watch?v=-F-IHvF5OCA
- trentnelson 3y ago
  I remember seeing someone link to that scene recently as a joke on Twitter (about Twitter trying to explain Twitter Blue). Within a few days I’d watched the entire series… absolutely phenomenal show. Edit: ah I actually saw the prior scene where Leslie was explaining to John what he expected (which is the setup for the linked bit): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7Do2tlYLhs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7Do2tlYLhs

f1codz 4y ago

You make a good point. Except that a number of these concepts and tooling in the ML world have been slingshotted into the forefront in a relatively short time and it has been hard to play catch up. For eg. - someone said "frozen Vicuna" below - what does that mean?

idkyall 4y ago
Vicuna is a specific open source AI LLM: https://ai.plainenglish.io/vicuna-the-unparalleled-open-source-ai-model-for-local-computer-installation-334c693c4931?gi=4231ce798b9a https://ai.plainenglish.io/vicuna-the-unparalleled-open-sour...

ttul 4y ago

The thing is, machine learning sorta requires a few math prerequisites: linear algebra, differential equations, and to some degree vector calculus. Most web developers don’t have this background.

craigching 4y ago
If you want to understand the theory, that's true. If you want to develop an intuitive understanding without having to understand all the nuts and bolts (and I understand that can be a big ask for how some people learn/understand), give this a try: https://karpathy.ai/zero-to-hero.html https://karpathy.ai/zero-to-hero.html
- akiselev 4y ago
  The irony is Karpathy presents the limit/epsilon definition of derivatives in the first half hour (quite well IMO and he never actually says “epsilon”) which is very much a nuts and bolts kind of explanation in calculus. That said, when most people say differential equations they’re usually thinking of analytical solutions which is very much not necessary for practical ML.
  - idiotsecant 4y ago
    I would say the limit epsilon derivative is exactly the sort of thing grandparent post is talking about. It's quite intuitive and doesn't require hardly any mathematical foundation at all, other than basic geometry and algebra. You can understand topics that build on that simple concept without understanding the more formal derivative definitions.
  - boppo1 3y ago
    I dunno, I just watched it and he almost immediately throws out the formality of the delta-epsilon definition and starts using infinitesimals. Thank god.

tracker1 4y ago

Okay, I won't mention how much is wrong in the webdev statement... :-D