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I spent my summers from ages 14-18 picking shade tobacco (for cigar wrappers) in Connecticut's Tobacco Valley. I'm not sure if it was state law but you couldn't

I spent my summers from ages 14-18 picking shade tobacco (for cigar wrappers) in Connecticut's Tobacco Valley. I'm not sure if it was state law but you couldn't start until you were 14. This was during summer vacation when school was out - but it used to be such an important local industry that if the crop was late they would delay the start of the school year so kids could keep picking. Boys and girls could both work but it was completely segregated - boys worked in the field, and girls worked in the sheds sewing the leaves onto lathes to hang to dry. They used to rent the old big yellow school buses from the local school district to pick us up in the morning, and there were even separate bus routes for boys and girls. I remember coming home with my fingers totally covered in black sap from the leaves but don't think I ever felt the effects of nicotine. They were long hot days and it was even hotter under the tents - they grow shade tobacco under cover. If it rained they sent us all home! But it was a fun time hanging out with other kids and even competing to see who could pick the fastest. Still, when I went to college I remember telling myself that my objective was to get a degree so I wouldn't ever have to work outside again.

arcticbull 3y ago
Were you paid a full adult salary? With benefits? If not, this is a harmful labor practice because you were undercutting the wages of full adult workers. In the same way that prison labor and undocumented workers undercut pay of adult workers, so too do child laborers. Neither are really able to report labor and safety violations, neither are able to decide not to work, and neither are paid a proper living wage. Neither are in a position to unionize. This is not a free market, and it hurts everyone in the economy. It feels more like a regression to feudalism. I’d say if we mandated a living wage this problem would likely sort itself out. [edit] It's a question of balance of power between employer and employee. Hiring the powerless hurts everyone, even if you personally had a good experience in retrospect. If you want to teach kids, you can do so at a non-profit instead of Philip Morris.
- logicchains 3y ago
  >I’d say if we mandated a living wage this problem would likely sort itself out. The minimum wage is already a "living wage"; people's expectations just keep getting higher and higher. Someone on the minimum wage is eating much better than somebody in Africa, and can afford much better accommodation (clean water, a roof over their head, albeit maybe a shared room). So if a person on Africa can live on much less, why does an American deserve more? If anything, if the world was fair then the American minimum wage would be lower, with that money diverted to people in underdeveloped places like Africa instead.
  - arcticbull 3y ago
    > The minimum wage is already a "living wage" We're not going to agree that $7.25 is a living wage. In 1970 it was the equivalent of $12 today meanwhile house prices across the US exploded. > So if a person on Africa can live on much less, why does an American deserve more? If anything, if the world was fair then the American minimum wage would be lower, with that money diverted to people in underdeveloped places like Africa instead. I just don't understand when you see two disparate groups the desire not to raise the lower one up, but hold back the better off group. You can make both groups better off at the same time. Labor advocacy matters. Things will regress if laborers don't constantly push for better. The discontent we see in society is imo in large part due to the decoupling of wage gains and productivity gains that started under Reagan. And yeah, everyone deserves better because we can afford better thanks to massively higher productivity. The whole point of higher productivity is that everyone should benefit.
    - logicchains 3y ago
      >I just don't understand when you see two disparate groups the desire not to raise the lower one up, but hold back the better off group. You can make both groups better off at the same time No you can't. Wealth transfers move wealth between people, they don't create wealth. If it did then raising the minimum wage to $100 would make everyone wealthy, but economics/physics doesn't work like that. And in the same manner that mandating a $100 minimum wage would make everyone worse off due to heavily distorting the market, mandating a $20 minimum wage makes everyone worse off to a smaller degree. >The whole point of higher productivity is that everyone should benefit Productivity comes from investment in tools and technology; from _capital_. If you take a modern worker back in time 100 years they won't be as productive as today, because they don't have access to the same tools, equipment, technology etc. That's why the people who make such investments deserve to reap the rewards of what they sowed. If we take all that and give it to workers who've done nothing but show up, then nobody has incentive to invest in further increasing productivity and productivity growth stagnates. Really what you're saying is people are entitled to the fruits of other people's efforts just for virtue of being born, which is an incredibly entitled way of looking at things.
- mprovost 3y ago
  I don't think anyone had any illusions about "teaching" us anything other than the value of hard work. We made minimum wage, no benefits (what does that even mean for a kid, we all had health insurance through our parents). I was able to save up for a few summers and buy myself a new computer (a 486SX!), which ultimately led me to where I am today. Seasonal agricultural work like this has been done by kids for generations. There's a short time where you need a flexible workforce and then you don't need them the rest of the year. And our hours were totally variable based on the crop and the weather. Some weeks there just wasn't anything to pick and we'd have to wait. You couldn't count on this income as an adult trying to pay the bills or raise a family. There were adults working there of course but they had different jobs (like driving tractors) and more steady income. I don't think we were stealing jobs from adults. In the end the number of kids willing to work in the fields went down and these days they don't even bother trying to hire locals. They started flying in seasonal workers from Puerto Rico and then Jamaica. You can save up enough money in a few months to go home and live off of for a while (plus any other seasonal work you can find).
  - arcticbull 3y ago
    > Seasonal agricultural work like this has been done by kids for generations. Rivers caught fire and the air was toxic for generations too. Historical precedent isn't particularly compelling IMO. > I don't think we were stealing jobs from adults. If they weren't going to find involuntary workers (kids, prison slaves - the correct term as of course slavery is permitted in the US as punishment for a crime under the 14th amendment) - they would have had to raise the amount they were paying voluntary workers until someone took the job. Or it wouldn't get done. This is how leverage in employment works. To have a free market for labor and accurate pricing, you need to have voluntary participation. Involuntary participation puts all the pricing power in the hands of capital. > They started flying in seasonal workers from Puerto Rico and then Jamaica. This doesn't have to be a permitted practice re: Jamaica. In a very real way it's the job of DOL and USCIS to prevent it. After all, they already do labor conditions and prevailing wage determinations for specialty workers. Why not farm workers? And there simply aren't enough people in Puerto Rico to change the balance of power.
- BigCryo 3y ago
  Yeah school is a dead end for many kids ....it's just a forced babysitting thing.. the establishment of course wants kids in school so they can brainwash them ...oops, I mean "educate" them
psychlops 3y ago
Few things are more educational than hard work. I did my time on an assembly line and worked like crazy through college so I didn't have to do that for a living.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

arcticbull 3y ago

Were you paid a full adult salary? With benefits? If not, this is a harmful labor practice because you were undercutting the wages of full adult workers. In the same way that prison labor and undocumented workers undercut pay of adult workers, so too do child laborers. Neither are really able to report labor and safety violations, neither are able to decide not to work, and neither are paid a proper living wage. Neither are in a position to unionize. This is not a free market, and it hurts everyone in the economy. It feels more like a regression to feudalism. I’d say if we mandated a living wage this problem would likely sort itself out. [edit] It's a question of balance of power between employer and employee. Hiring the powerless hurts everyone, even if you personally had a good experience in retrospect. If you want to teach kids, you can do so at a non-profit instead of Philip Morris.

logicchains 3y ago
>I’d say if we mandated a living wage this problem would likely sort itself out. The minimum wage is already a "living wage"; people's expectations just keep getting higher and higher. Someone on the minimum wage is eating much better than somebody in Africa, and can afford much better accommodation (clean water, a roof over their head, albeit maybe a shared room). So if a person on Africa can live on much less, why does an American deserve more? If anything, if the world was fair then the American minimum wage would be lower, with that money diverted to people in underdeveloped places like Africa instead.
- arcticbull 3y ago
  > The minimum wage is already a "living wage" We're not going to agree that $7.25 is a living wage. In 1970 it was the equivalent of $12 today meanwhile house prices across the US exploded. > So if a person on Africa can live on much less, why does an American deserve more? If anything, if the world was fair then the American minimum wage would be lower, with that money diverted to people in underdeveloped places like Africa instead. I just don't understand when you see two disparate groups the desire not to raise the lower one up, but hold back the better off group. You can make both groups better off at the same time. Labor advocacy matters. Things will regress if laborers don't constantly push for better. The discontent we see in society is imo in large part due to the decoupling of wage gains and productivity gains that started under Reagan. And yeah, everyone deserves better because we can afford better thanks to massively higher productivity. The whole point of higher productivity is that everyone should benefit.
  - logicchains 3y ago
    >I just don't understand when you see two disparate groups the desire not to raise the lower one up, but hold back the better off group. You can make both groups better off at the same time No you can't. Wealth transfers move wealth between people, they don't create wealth. If it did then raising the minimum wage to $100 would make everyone wealthy, but economics/physics doesn't work like that. And in the same manner that mandating a $100 minimum wage would make everyone worse off due to heavily distorting the market, mandating a $20 minimum wage makes everyone worse off to a smaller degree. >The whole point of higher productivity is that everyone should benefit Productivity comes from investment in tools and technology; from _capital_. If you take a modern worker back in time 100 years they won't be as productive as today, because they don't have access to the same tools, equipment, technology etc. That's why the people who make such investments deserve to reap the rewards of what they sowed. If we take all that and give it to workers who've done nothing but show up, then nobody has incentive to invest in further increasing productivity and productivity growth stagnates. Really what you're saying is people are entitled to the fruits of other people's efforts just for virtue of being born, which is an incredibly entitled way of looking at things.
mprovost 3y ago
I don't think anyone had any illusions about "teaching" us anything other than the value of hard work. We made minimum wage, no benefits (what does that even mean for a kid, we all had health insurance through our parents). I was able to save up for a few summers and buy myself a new computer (a 486SX!), which ultimately led me to where I am today. Seasonal agricultural work like this has been done by kids for generations. There's a short time where you need a flexible workforce and then you don't need them the rest of the year. And our hours were totally variable based on the crop and the weather. Some weeks there just wasn't anything to pick and we'd have to wait. You couldn't count on this income as an adult trying to pay the bills or raise a family. There were adults working there of course but they had different jobs (like driving tractors) and more steady income. I don't think we were stealing jobs from adults. In the end the number of kids willing to work in the fields went down and these days they don't even bother trying to hire locals. They started flying in seasonal workers from Puerto Rico and then Jamaica. You can save up enough money in a few months to go home and live off of for a while (plus any other seasonal work you can find).
- arcticbull 3y ago
  > Seasonal agricultural work like this has been done by kids for generations. Rivers caught fire and the air was toxic for generations too. Historical precedent isn't particularly compelling IMO. > I don't think we were stealing jobs from adults. If they weren't going to find involuntary workers (kids, prison slaves - the correct term as of course slavery is permitted in the US as punishment for a crime under the 14th amendment) - they would have had to raise the amount they were paying voluntary workers until someone took the job. Or it wouldn't get done. This is how leverage in employment works. To have a free market for labor and accurate pricing, you need to have voluntary participation. Involuntary participation puts all the pricing power in the hands of capital. > They started flying in seasonal workers from Puerto Rico and then Jamaica. This doesn't have to be a permitted practice re: Jamaica. In a very real way it's the job of DOL and USCIS to prevent it. After all, they already do labor conditions and prevailing wage determinations for specialty workers. Why not farm workers? And there simply aren't enough people in Puerto Rico to change the balance of power.
BigCryo 3y ago
Yeah school is a dead end for many kids ....it's just a forced babysitting thing.. the establishment of course wants kids in school so they can brainwash them ...oops, I mean "educate" them

psychlops 3y ago

Few things are more educational than hard work. I did my time on an assembly line and worked like crazy through college so I didn't have to do that for a living.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]