6 ms·

children under 18 can’t vote for better labor laws either, they should be able to vote

nverno 4y ago
Do you think they would vote against be allowed to work? I always wanted jobs as a teen so I could do stuff- I wanted to be independent as do most teens I'd imagine.
- jeffbee 4y ago
  Not sure where you studied arithmetic but in my locale 12 is not "teen".
  - nverno 4y ago
    > children under 18 Whether your 12 or 13-18, I doubt their voting preferences would be considerably different in this regard.
- micromacrofoot 4y ago
  It's not for me to say how they'd vote, if they're working they should be able to vote for someone to represent their interests.
  - theandrewbailey 4y ago
    They should be able to vote with their feet and not work, or work somewhere else.
    - micromacrofoot 4y ago
      That's not a compelling argument to prevent them from voting. Their paychecks are taxed, let them vote.
      - theandrewbailey 4y ago
        Suffrage isn't granted based on paying taxes. Is it anywhere? Paying taxes is simply the cost of living in a society, but I don't think that paying them should grant you a voice any more than buying a company's products gives you a vote in who their CEO is. Foreign nationals pay taxes on their income, but they aren't allowed to vote. As soon as kids are old enough to buy things from stores, they are paying sales taxes, but no one's arguing that kids should vote because of it.
        micromacrofoot 4y ago
        Sales tax is different than federal income taxes for services like social security and the like, as not all states levy a sales tax... "No taxation without representation" was one of the better insights to come out of the American Revolution, and has never gone far enough. I'm of the mind that anyone that can prove that they're a long-term tax-paying resident should be able to vote. I am interested in hearing more opinions about why children should specifically not be allowed to vote though, these always tend to devolve to "kids are dumb" or "aren't mature enough to make that kind of decision" but under that reasoning I don't think they should be working fields, driving cars, playing full-contact sports, etc... what kids can and can not do seems to be dictated by the economy and ruling class more than what they're actually capable of or what's good for them.
- nsxwolf 4y ago
  I don’t know how old you are (over 40?) but I suspect there’s a generational gap here. In the 1990s and before, in my part of the US anyway, a teenager without a job was seen as lazy or entitled. Sometime after the mobile internet happened kids stopped working. They stopped driving cars and that was a big motivator for work. There was a lot of money flying around and parents just started handing spending money to their kids. Now I read articles post-COVID that sound shocked that fast food chains are advertising jobs to 14 year olds. If you’re much under 40, this might seem like some terrifying Charles Dickens stuff.
  - nverno 4y ago
    I was a teen in the early 00s, so just prior to mobile internet really taking off. Driving was a huge motivator for us to work (rural). I suspect your right about the generational gap. Perspective also seems to differ between urban/rural. I'd get it if there were some great alternative that teens were missing out on because they worked, but from my experience there was plenty of time to work, go to school, and still smoke weed everyday. Granted I didn't do 10-hour days 5-6 days a week all summer like the guy in the article, but normal 40-50hr/week full-time summer jobs was nothing.
  - bigbillheck 4y ago
    My first paid job was at 16, I'm pushing 50 and that's some terrifying Charles Dickens stuff.
    - nsxwolf 4y ago
      I started food service work at 14 in the early 90s and it's some of the greatest memories of my youth.
  - micromacrofoot 4y ago
    I've heard that there's also a perception that the work itself has become worse since the 90s. I don't know if this is actually true, but on the retail job level I've heard it involves more micromanaging, more rude customers, more work per employee, and pay is worse when adjusted for inflation.
vxNsr 4y ago
Have you seen how kids vote in their school elections? Why in the world would you want them to have any real say in anything? It’s bad enough people get to vote before they turn 30 you want to give kids who think produce is made in the back of the grocery store the ability to make decisions?
- micromacrofoot 4y ago
  I've seen how adults vote and honestly I don't think there's a measurable improvement as people age. Additionally, it's unfair to say "X shouldn't vote because I don't like how they'd vote" — my argument that if you're employed there are a lot of laws involved in how/what/when you're employed. If we trust someone to work a somewhat dangerous or strenuous job, then we should trust them to vote. It's hypocritical to say that a minor can operate heavy machinery or handle dangerous materials, but they're not mature enough to vote for elected representatives.
- bigbillheck 4y ago
  This is an argument for improving education so that the kids make more informed choices, not for limiting the franchise.

Do you think they would vote against be allowed to work? I always wanted jobs as a teen so I could do stuff- I wanted to be independent as do most teens I'd imagine.

jeffbee 4y ago
Not sure where you studied arithmetic but in my locale 12 is not "teen".
- nverno 4y ago
  > children under 18 Whether your 12 or 13-18, I doubt their voting preferences would be considerably different in this regard.
micromacrofoot 4y ago
It's not for me to say how they'd vote, if they're working they should be able to vote for someone to represent their interests.
- theandrewbailey 4y ago
  They should be able to vote with their feet and not work, or work somewhere else.
  - micromacrofoot 4y ago
    That's not a compelling argument to prevent them from voting. Their paychecks are taxed, let them vote.
    - theandrewbailey 4y ago
      Suffrage isn't granted based on paying taxes. Is it anywhere? Paying taxes is simply the cost of living in a society, but I don't think that paying them should grant you a voice any more than buying a company's products gives you a vote in who their CEO is. Foreign nationals pay taxes on their income, but they aren't allowed to vote. As soon as kids are old enough to buy things from stores, they are paying sales taxes, but no one's arguing that kids should vote because of it.
      - micromacrofoot 4y ago
        Sales tax is different than federal income taxes for services like social security and the like, as not all states levy a sales tax... "No taxation without representation" was one of the better insights to come out of the American Revolution, and has never gone far enough. I'm of the mind that anyone that can prove that they're a long-term tax-paying resident should be able to vote. I am interested in hearing more opinions about why children should specifically not be allowed to vote though, these always tend to devolve to "kids are dumb" or "aren't mature enough to make that kind of decision" but under that reasoning I don't think they should be working fields, driving cars, playing full-contact sports, etc... what kids can and can not do seems to be dictated by the economy and ruling class more than what they're actually capable of or what's good for them.
nsxwolf 4y ago
I don’t know how old you are (over 40?) but I suspect there’s a generational gap here. In the 1990s and before, in my part of the US anyway, a teenager without a job was seen as lazy or entitled. Sometime after the mobile internet happened kids stopped working. They stopped driving cars and that was a big motivator for work. There was a lot of money flying around and parents just started handing spending money to their kids. Now I read articles post-COVID that sound shocked that fast food chains are advertising jobs to 14 year olds. If you’re much under 40, this might seem like some terrifying Charles Dickens stuff.
- nverno 4y ago
  I was a teen in the early 00s, so just prior to mobile internet really taking off. Driving was a huge motivator for us to work (rural). I suspect your right about the generational gap. Perspective also seems to differ between urban/rural. I'd get it if there were some great alternative that teens were missing out on because they worked, but from my experience there was plenty of time to work, go to school, and still smoke weed everyday. Granted I didn't do 10-hour days 5-6 days a week all summer like the guy in the article, but normal 40-50hr/week full-time summer jobs was nothing.
- bigbillheck 4y ago
  My first paid job was at 16, I'm pushing 50 and that's some terrifying Charles Dickens stuff.
  - nsxwolf 4y ago
    I started food service work at 14 in the early 90s and it's some of the greatest memories of my youth.
- micromacrofoot 4y ago
  I've heard that there's also a perception that the work itself has become worse since the 90s. I don't know if this is actually true, but on the retail job level I've heard it involves more micromanaging, more rude customers, more work per employee, and pay is worse when adjusted for inflation.

vxNsr 4y ago

Have you seen how kids vote in their school elections? Why in the world would you want them to have any real say in anything? It’s bad enough people get to vote before they turn 30 you want to give kids who think produce is made in the back of the grocery store the ability to make decisions?

micromacrofoot 4y ago
I've seen how adults vote and honestly I don't think there's a measurable improvement as people age. Additionally, it's unfair to say "X shouldn't vote because I don't like how they'd vote" — my argument that if you're employed there are a lot of laws involved in how/what/when you're employed. If we trust someone to work a somewhat dangerous or strenuous job, then we should trust them to vote. It's hypocritical to say that a minor can operate heavy machinery or handle dangerous materials, but they're not mature enough to vote for elected representatives.
bigbillheck 4y ago
This is an argument for improving education so that the kids make more informed choices, not for limiting the franchise.