4 ms·

> they're just two radically different and largely incompatible audiences This is incorrect, and I think you're maybe missing some context. What is being refer

by smcl 4y ago

> they're just two radically different and largely incompatible audiences This is incorrect, and I think you're maybe missing some context. What is being referred to here isn't esports players being whiny or particular about changing a game in a way that would hurt casual users. What's happened a few times recently is that Nintendo were very heavy handed in cracking down on things like Smash Brothers e-sports tournaments: https://www.theverge.com/2022/11/30/23485811/nintendo-smash-world-tour-shut-down-event-tournament https://www.theverge.com/2022/11/30/23485811/nintendo-smash-... So here they have already made a game that is beloved by both casual players and professional players, and they seem really keen on cracking down on the latter group. They don't need to take any special steps to cater to e-sports players or tournaments, they just needed to not go out of their way to crack down on them.

simoncion 4y ago
No, I'm not missing any context. The E-sports audience is largely incompatible with the audience that enjoys playing with fun and interesting toys. Completely incompatible? No, and that's not what I said. In any sufficiently-large group there will be exceptions to that group's general tendencies. Were I Nintendo, I would definitely take pains to put a big damper on people and organizations who wanted to do "professional" E-sports to my toys... which seems to me to be exactly what they're doing.
- smcl 4y ago
  Wait now you're now making a different point entirely. Before you suggested they shouldn't need to go out of their way to treat e-sports any differently (to accomodate them) because they're not the target market. Now you're saying they should go out of their way to treat them differently (to punish/hinder them) because they're not the target market? Look I get that e-sports isn't for everyone, it's certainly not for me. But this doesn't make sense, and I suspect that this push against e-sports or modding isn't coming from the creative minds behind the games themselves, but by management who couldn't care less about whether something is or is not a toy. It's the people who just want to see black on their end of year balance sheets and don't understand how e-sports or modding would impact that (including how it could even improve it)
  - simoncion 4y ago
    > Wait now you're now making a different point entirely. No. You misunderstood what I've been saying since the first paragraph of my initial post. I've been consistently saying that the E-sports is kinda awful, and that that scene is generally at odds with the sort of folks who like playing with fun and interesting toys. Once the E-sports locusts solidly descend on something, its nature gets changed (by association, at minimum). Nintendo clearly (and correctly) doesn't want that, so they're right to discourage it. They're a "fun and interesting toy" company, not a "professional, competitive e-sports games" company.
    - Loughla 4y ago
      I think you absolutely have hit the nail on the head in your arguments here. E-sports leagues want the tool to be consistent across the years, and want to make sure their top players are able to maintain their elite status for the headlines and press they get. Games that cater to e-sports leagues tend to be come very much about power players; fun is secondary to winning. That is incompatible with a company that seems to want to make fun things for a family to play, like Nintendo. Copyright striking everything is one issue, but not wanting to bend over backwards for e-sports is a different thing entirely; and I think it makes sense for a massive company like Nintendo.
      - _gabe_ 4y ago
        > That is incompatible with a company that seems to want to make fun things for a family to play, like Nintendo. Yes, because sibling rivalry and intense competition among family simply never happens. It's always just a fun time where everybody is a winner. Except for the fact that games like Smash Bros, Mario Kart, Mario Party, Wii Sports, etc will literally call out the winners and the losers of the tournament/match/game. This argument makes no sense whatsoever. Plenty of people like to play Football, Baseball, Basketball, insert sport here for fun. That doesn't change the fact that there are paid professional leagues that take it to the next level. And the reason the professionals get paid is because other people, even sometimes those casual players, enjoy watching professionals play their favorite game at a superb level of skill. > Copyright striking everything is one issue, but not wanting to bend over backwards for e-sports is a different thing entirely; You and OP keep saying this. Please tell me what restrictions e-Sports players are trying to place on Nintendo? In this specific instance, SWT was literally playing one game that is 22 years old and that Nintendo does not even sell anymore (afaict you can't purchase Smash Melee from Nintendo). The other game was released 5 years ago, and the e-Sports scene wasn't demanding that Nintendo stop making updates or something afaik. And, just as an aside, I don't give a crap about e-Sports. But the e-Sports scene certainly hasn't detracted from my enjoyment of playing smash with my brothers for fun and for competitive fun.

by smcl 4y ago

simoncion 4y ago

No, I'm not missing any context. The E-sports audience is largely incompatible with the audience that enjoys playing with fun and interesting toys. Completely incompatible? No, and that's not what I said. In any sufficiently-large group there will be exceptions to that group's general tendencies. Were I Nintendo, I would definitely take pains to put a big damper on people and organizations who wanted to do "professional" E-sports to my toys... which seems to me to be exactly what they're doing.

smcl 4y ago
Wait now you're now making a different point entirely. Before you suggested they shouldn't need to go out of their way to treat e-sports any differently (to accomodate them) because they're not the target market. Now you're saying they should go out of their way to treat them differently (to punish/hinder them) because they're not the target market? Look I get that e-sports isn't for everyone, it's certainly not for me. But this doesn't make sense, and I suspect that this push against e-sports or modding isn't coming from the creative minds behind the games themselves, but by management who couldn't care less about whether something is or is not a toy. It's the people who just want to see black on their end of year balance sheets and don't understand how e-sports or modding would impact that (including how it could even improve it)
- simoncion 4y ago
  > Wait now you're now making a different point entirely. No. You misunderstood what I've been saying since the first paragraph of my initial post. I've been consistently saying that the E-sports is kinda awful, and that that scene is generally at odds with the sort of folks who like playing with fun and interesting toys. Once the E-sports locusts solidly descend on something, its nature gets changed (by association, at minimum). Nintendo clearly (and correctly) doesn't want that, so they're right to discourage it. They're a "fun and interesting toy" company, not a "professional, competitive e-sports games" company.
  - Loughla 4y ago
    I think you absolutely have hit the nail on the head in your arguments here. E-sports leagues want the tool to be consistent across the years, and want to make sure their top players are able to maintain their elite status for the headlines and press they get. Games that cater to e-sports leagues tend to be come very much about power players; fun is secondary to winning. That is incompatible with a company that seems to want to make fun things for a family to play, like Nintendo. Copyright striking everything is one issue, but not wanting to bend over backwards for e-sports is a different thing entirely; and I think it makes sense for a massive company like Nintendo.
    - _gabe_ 4y ago
      > That is incompatible with a company that seems to want to make fun things for a family to play, like Nintendo. Yes, because sibling rivalry and intense competition among family simply never happens. It's always just a fun time where everybody is a winner. Except for the fact that games like Smash Bros, Mario Kart, Mario Party, Wii Sports, etc will literally call out the winners and the losers of the tournament/match/game. This argument makes no sense whatsoever. Plenty of people like to play Football, Baseball, Basketball, insert sport here for fun. That doesn't change the fact that there are paid professional leagues that take it to the next level. And the reason the professionals get paid is because other people, even sometimes those casual players, enjoy watching professionals play their favorite game at a superb level of skill. > Copyright striking everything is one issue, but not wanting to bend over backwards for e-sports is a different thing entirely; You and OP keep saying this. Please tell me what restrictions e-Sports players are trying to place on Nintendo? In this specific instance, SWT was literally playing one game that is 22 years old and that Nintendo does not even sell anymore (afaict you can't purchase Smash Melee from Nintendo). The other game was released 5 years ago, and the e-Sports scene wasn't demanding that Nintendo stop making updates or something afaik. And, just as an aside, I don't give a crap about e-Sports. But the e-Sports scene certainly hasn't detracted from my enjoyment of playing smash with my brothers for fun and for competitive fun.