4 ms·

For those thinking about replicating this: Victron is really popular because it's extendable and the management interface is reasonably open, but the zoo of req

For those thinking about replicating this: Victron is really popular because it's extendable and the management interface is reasonably open, but the zoo of required devices makes the costs explode quickly. Maybe look at Deye instead. I'm running a 12kW unit (they're available smaller) with a 48V battery. The software is in poorly translated to English, firmware updates are made by the manufacturer remote on request and it has no shadow management (meaning it might end up on a local maximum in the MPPT, not the global maximum) - but the unit cost me about 3000€ with 10yr warranty instead of the >7000€ for an equivalent zoo of Victron parts. Of course it can do black starts from PV or battery, and act as a UPS on a secondary output. Pulling data locally can be done using a RS485 modbus interface; so I open my firewall only for firmware updates. The 3.6kW single phase unit (SG05LP1) can be had for less than 1300€. A 5kW three phase unit is only a little bit more expensive, but I'd worry about standby consumption in low power scenarios with only a few modules (mine hogs 80W, but a three phase Victron setup does so as well). These are string inverters, so you need more modules for them to reach their start up voltage, and then some more to put them into the MPPT zone. The 1 phase starts at 125V and the MPPT tracker works with 150-425V, the 3 phase units 160V & 200-650V respectively. When I browsed the market there were other offerings from other brands with 90V start up; but be careful to get a unit that's legal to connect to the grid IF you want to have grid fall back (here in Germany, Victron and Deye are legal - at least the parts I looked at. But you will always need a electrician with a concession to register them with the grid company. Some people don't care and just setup their systems though). Important: The voltages depend on the chosen PV module; mine are in the 40V per module ballpark, but iirc I might maybe have seen up to 60V? So for the 3.6kW unit you'd want at least 3 or 4 modules.

madaxe_again 4y ago
Not sure what zoo of parts you’re referring to? I have two multiplus 5kva 48v, a bmv-712, a venus gx, and a pair of their biggest MPPTs - and for our pretty large install it shook out at about €4,500. Without the redundancy, it would have been more like €2,500.
- archi42 4y ago
  Don't get me wrong, the Victron systems are nice & I envy their great traits I've praised in sibling comments. But your system doesn't compare on the power specs. There is no exact equivalent for the Deye with Victron. The Deye can do 15.6kWp solar, split over 2 MPPT. The topology is such that one MPPT can do 15kW while the other does 0W (I did not believe this, but I've talked to the manufacturer and it's indeed correct). The inverter can output 12kW AC, or draw that much for charging the battery. If your load is not balanced well, there is a video of someone testing it with 12kW sustained output on a single phase (this is only useful for a select few maniacs though; I'm not one of these). And if the 12kW is not enough, you can put them in parallel (like with Victron). I deleted my notes on the Victron setup, but this is something similar to what I was looking at (about Sept 2022): 3x Multiplus 48/5000 on the AC/DC end for full three phase setup (back then 1700€ each, now 1300€) - mind those can really "only" push 5000VA or 4000W at 25degC. Our roof would be 1x MPPT RS 450/200 (pretty stable at 1800€), the string in the garden 1x 450/100 (1200€ in Sept, 1000€ now). A RPi plus USB adapters and PSU and sturdy case for VenusOS (or a GX unit) would be close to 100€ extra, also add additional cables and the necessary busbars (dunno, 200€?). For a three phase that's 7000€ today, or 8400€ in September. Of course that's just one way of building a system, and Victron is amazingly flexible - and with my 14kWh battery two multiplus would probably have been enough (caveat emptor: no idea if my grid operator would have accepted 2x5kVA or rejected it due to the inbalance). Lots of people use a SmartShunt or Lynx, these also add to the costs of a Victron system. Why zoo: The footprint of the Victron 3x MP and 2x MPPTs is nearly 0.9m²; add busbars and other periphals, and you're easily at 1m². Plus, each device needs some clearance due to the heat. The Deye is one unit with 0.3m² footprint. This is also nice.
  - madaxe_again 4y ago
    Ok, you’ve got me interested - thanks for the write-up - now I just need to see if it can coexist with the victron ecosystem I already have. Probably.
jacquesm 4y ago
Victron is good stuff and it is made to last. They're a big supplier to maritime integrators to provide power on board of ships of all shapes & sizes. I've yet to see a Victron inverter fail before the end of the lifetime of the installation it was a part of whereas most other inverters including Xantrex and ABB tend to die after a decade or so. Which isn't bad but still it can be a big hassle to replace an inverter if the form factor has changed. Also: consider decoupling your battery charger setup from the solar portion, this will give you a lot more flexibility in terms of siting (you can then place your battery and charger where you want on your local installation). You can use HA to bring your battery online when it is most needed and even when to charge it based on the outputs of multiple fields of solar, an integrated solution really only works with a single inverter or a set of inverters of a single brand. And if you can stay away from stuff that requires an internet connection to some manufacturer, not all upgrades are positives and your data shouldn't be going there anywhere. Also it probably isn't a good idea to hand over control of a grid connected device to another party, especially when that device has firmware that can't be audited.
- mapmap 4y ago
  > consider decoupling your battery charger setup from the solar portion Can you provide more details on this? I’m having a hard time imagining how the solar, inverter, and battery chargers are connected in relation to the house and grid. And what is HA? Thank you.
  - jacquesm 4y ago
    HA -> Home Assistant If you have a separate charger/inverter that you can control remotely using HA then you simply monitor your outgoing power and if that goes negative and your batteries aren't charged yet you instruct the charger portion to charge the batteries. Then, when the sun goes down you can order the inverter part to come to life and supply current up to the point where the outgoing current is close to zero. Like that you maximize your own usage. And by having this split up you can site your batteries in a spot where the temperature is relatively stable, but still outside of the house which is usually not where you have your solar panels. A solar inverter should be sited relatively close to the panels to avoid cable losses and to reduce the risk of having unfused 800V DC cabling running through your house for any appreciable length. Ideally you want those cables to be just long enough to get under the roof to the spot where the inverter sits and then regular cabling to the distribution panel. By connecting the charger/inverter combination to the distribution panel in the same manner you get a lot more freedom. And if you have multiple sets of solar panels that's really the only setup that makes sense otherwise only a limited number of panels can be used to charge the battery (the ones that are directly connected to the inverter that feeds that battery). That's why I'm not a huge fan of the so called 'hybrid' inverters. They make a lot of assumptions about the physical layout of the location that may not hold true in practice. Here I have 50 panels divided into five fields, 6,8,8,10, and 18 panels in each of them and three inverters. This gave a lot of flexibility in where panels could be located. But if I want to charge a battery in a hybrid setup I'd have to pick which set of panels to use and then I'd still be limited in where I could locate the batteries, presumably they'd be close to whichever set of panels I would like to use to charge them with. But by decoupling that and using the AC network as the bus I can put them pretty much anywhere that I can reach with another cable run into the distribution panel. That way all 50 panels can contribute to the charging. An interesting extra option is to run one more cable from the battery charger/inverter to the inverter port, that allows you to power a set of critical loads from battery power. But since the grid here is very reliable I won't be using that. hth, feel free to ask more.

madaxe_again 4y ago

Not sure what zoo of parts you’re referring to? I have two multiplus 5kva 48v, a bmv-712, a venus gx, and a pair of their biggest MPPTs - and for our pretty large install it shook out at about €4,500. Without the redundancy, it would have been more like €2,500.

archi42 4y ago
Don't get me wrong, the Victron systems are nice & I envy their great traits I've praised in sibling comments. But your system doesn't compare on the power specs. There is no exact equivalent for the Deye with Victron. The Deye can do 15.6kWp solar, split over 2 MPPT. The topology is such that one MPPT can do 15kW while the other does 0W (I did not believe this, but I've talked to the manufacturer and it's indeed correct). The inverter can output 12kW AC, or draw that much for charging the battery. If your load is not balanced well, there is a video of someone testing it with 12kW sustained output on a single phase (this is only useful for a select few maniacs though; I'm not one of these). And if the 12kW is not enough, you can put them in parallel (like with Victron). I deleted my notes on the Victron setup, but this is something similar to what I was looking at (about Sept 2022): 3x Multiplus 48/5000 on the AC/DC end for full three phase setup (back then 1700€ each, now 1300€) - mind those can really "only" push 5000VA or 4000W at 25degC. Our roof would be 1x MPPT RS 450/200 (pretty stable at 1800€), the string in the garden 1x 450/100 (1200€ in Sept, 1000€ now). A RPi plus USB adapters and PSU and sturdy case for VenusOS (or a GX unit) would be close to 100€ extra, also add additional cables and the necessary busbars (dunno, 200€?). For a three phase that's 7000€ today, or 8400€ in September. Of course that's just one way of building a system, and Victron is amazingly flexible - and with my 14kWh battery two multiplus would probably have been enough (caveat emptor: no idea if my grid operator would have accepted 2x5kVA or rejected it due to the inbalance). Lots of people use a SmartShunt or Lynx, these also add to the costs of a Victron system. Why zoo: The footprint of the Victron 3x MP and 2x MPPTs is nearly 0.9m²; add busbars and other periphals, and you're easily at 1m². Plus, each device needs some clearance due to the heat. The Deye is one unit with 0.3m² footprint. This is also nice.
- madaxe_again 4y ago
  Ok, you’ve got me interested - thanks for the write-up - now I just need to see if it can coexist with the victron ecosystem I already have. Probably.

jacquesm 4y ago

Victron is good stuff and it is made to last. They're a big supplier to maritime integrators to provide power on board of ships of all shapes & sizes. I've yet to see a Victron inverter fail before the end of the lifetime of the installation it was a part of whereas most other inverters including Xantrex and ABB tend to die after a decade or so. Which isn't bad but still it can be a big hassle to replace an inverter if the form factor has changed. Also: consider decoupling your battery charger setup from the solar portion, this will give you a lot more flexibility in terms of siting (you can then place your battery and charger where you want on your local installation). You can use HA to bring your battery online when it is most needed and even when to charge it based on the outputs of multiple fields of solar, an integrated solution really only works with a single inverter or a set of inverters of a single brand. And if you can stay away from stuff that requires an internet connection to some manufacturer, not all upgrades are positives and your data shouldn't be going there anywhere. Also it probably isn't a good idea to hand over control of a grid connected device to another party, especially when that device has firmware that can't be audited.

mapmap 4y ago
> consider decoupling your battery charger setup from the solar portion Can you provide more details on this? I’m having a hard time imagining how the solar, inverter, and battery chargers are connected in relation to the house and grid. And what is HA? Thank you.
- jacquesm 4y ago
  HA -> Home Assistant If you have a separate charger/inverter that you can control remotely using HA then you simply monitor your outgoing power and if that goes negative and your batteries aren't charged yet you instruct the charger portion to charge the batteries. Then, when the sun goes down you can order the inverter part to come to life and supply current up to the point where the outgoing current is close to zero. Like that you maximize your own usage. And by having this split up you can site your batteries in a spot where the temperature is relatively stable, but still outside of the house which is usually not where you have your solar panels. A solar inverter should be sited relatively close to the panels to avoid cable losses and to reduce the risk of having unfused 800V DC cabling running through your house for any appreciable length. Ideally you want those cables to be just long enough to get under the roof to the spot where the inverter sits and then regular cabling to the distribution panel. By connecting the charger/inverter combination to the distribution panel in the same manner you get a lot more freedom. And if you have multiple sets of solar panels that's really the only setup that makes sense otherwise only a limited number of panels can be used to charge the battery (the ones that are directly connected to the inverter that feeds that battery). That's why I'm not a huge fan of the so called 'hybrid' inverters. They make a lot of assumptions about the physical layout of the location that may not hold true in practice. Here I have 50 panels divided into five fields, 6,8,8,10, and 18 panels in each of them and three inverters. This gave a lot of flexibility in where panels could be located. But if I want to charge a battery in a hybrid setup I'd have to pick which set of panels to use and then I'd still be limited in where I could locate the batteries, presumably they'd be close to whichever set of panels I would like to use to charge them with. But by decoupling that and using the AC network as the bus I can put them pretty much anywhere that I can reach with another cable run into the distribution panel. That way all 50 panels can contribute to the charging. An interesting extra option is to run one more cable from the battery charger/inverter to the inverter port, that allows you to power a set of critical loads from battery power. But since the grid here is very reliable I won't be using that. hth, feel free to ask more.