6 ms·

> I feel like this is yet another example of a large company acting in a way that hurts both their customers and themselves. This is pretty specifically a Nint

by mjr00 4y ago

> I feel like this is yet another example of a large company acting in a way that hurts both their customers and themselves. This is pretty specifically a Nintendo thing. Sony, MS, and pretty much every major game studio are fine with people streaming content of their game, even mods. Hell, it usually ends up being the opposite--game studios offer 6 or 7 figure deals to popular streamers to play their game as marketing play. Worked for Apex Legends. Nintendo has always been really, really aggressive about this, to the point where it doesn't make sense. They've aggressively cracked down on fan projects (e.g. AM2R) which is at least arguably justifiable from a copyright/IP perspective. But they've also threatened to take down any speedrun video with a Nintendo game in it. And they had a major row with EVO about whether Smash could even be played at the tournament a few years back; during a time when companies were throwing tens of millions of dollars to get into the esports scene, Nintendo was refusing a handout on a golden platter.

simoncion 4y ago
> ...during a time when companies were throwing tens of millions of dollars to get into the esports scene, Nintendo was refusing a handout on a golden platter. The E-sports scene is kinda awful, to be honest. Historically, Nintendo has been interested in making fun and interesting toys for people to play with. E-sports people are usually VERY SERIOUS about what they do, and often VERY PARTICULAR about how games work, and VERY VOCAL about changes to a game that radically changes how they've become accustomed to playing the game. Catering to money-making E-sports is generally incompatible with making fun and interesting toys... they're just two radically different and largely incompatible audiences.
- smcl 4y ago
  > they're just two radically different and largely incompatible audiences This is incorrect, and I think you're maybe missing some context. What is being referred to here isn't esports players being whiny or particular about changing a game in a way that would hurt casual users. What's happened a few times recently is that Nintendo were very heavy handed in cracking down on things like Smash Brothers e-sports tournaments: https://www.theverge.com/2022/11/30/23485811/nintendo-smash-world-tour-shut-down-event-tournament https://www.theverge.com/2022/11/30/23485811/nintendo-smash-... So here they have already made a game that is beloved by both casual players and professional players, and they seem really keen on cracking down on the latter group. They don't need to take any special steps to cater to e-sports players or tournaments, they just needed to not go out of their way to crack down on them.
  - simoncion 4y ago
    No, I'm not missing any context. The E-sports audience is largely incompatible with the audience that enjoys playing with fun and interesting toys. Completely incompatible? No, and that's not what I said. In any sufficiently-large group there will be exceptions to that group's general tendencies. Were I Nintendo, I would definitely take pains to put a big damper on people and organizations who wanted to do "professional" E-sports to my toys... which seems to me to be exactly what they're doing.
    - smcl 4y ago
      Wait now you're now making a different point entirely. Before you suggested they shouldn't need to go out of their way to treat e-sports any differently (to accomodate them) because they're not the target market. Now you're saying they should go out of their way to treat them differently (to punish/hinder them) because they're not the target market? Look I get that e-sports isn't for everyone, it's certainly not for me. But this doesn't make sense, and I suspect that this push against e-sports or modding isn't coming from the creative minds behind the games themselves, but by management who couldn't care less about whether something is or is not a toy. It's the people who just want to see black on their end of year balance sheets and don't understand how e-sports or modding would impact that (including how it could even improve it)
      - simoncion 4y ago
        > Wait now you're now making a different point entirely. No. You misunderstood what I've been saying since the first paragraph of my initial post. I've been consistently saying that the E-sports is kinda awful, and that that scene is generally at odds with the sort of folks who like playing with fun and interesting toys. Once the E-sports locusts solidly descend on something, its nature gets changed (by association, at minimum). Nintendo clearly (and correctly) doesn't want that, so they're right to discourage it. They're a "fun and interesting toy" company, not a "professional, competitive e-sports games" company.
        4y ago
lemoncookiechip 4y ago
> This is pretty specifically a Nintendo thing. It used to be very much a Japanese game developer mentality (Sony excluded) to strike or at last claim gameplay videos. SEGA used to pull this all the time two back in the day, and still do for certain elements of games, like cutscenes in certain games like Persona (Atlus is a subsidiary). Nintendo just never stopped like you've articulated really well. They seem to hate that their most avid fans show how much love they have for their IPs.
- noirscape 4y ago
  SEGA literally DMCAed every single YouTube video of the original Shining Force to prevent people from comparing the original to the remake. As in, they searched Shining Force and send DMCA strikes to every single video they could find. They only backtracked after they got a literal metric fuckton of negative press due to it.
- numpad0 4y ago
  The criteria listed by noirscape way above is well laid out, and it's not just game developer. Dojinshi, AI arts... It's the Japanese mindset. The bundles of bank notes left on the table are, just, notes. Sales is just someone else's business. Those are never the point. If you call them first for a profit sharing scheme, only then sometimes some cares, but still it's more for the scheme. 0: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35597791 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35597791

by mjr00 4y ago

simoncion 4y ago

> ...during a time when companies were throwing tens of millions of dollars to get into the esports scene, Nintendo was refusing a handout on a golden platter. The E-sports scene is kinda awful, to be honest. Historically, Nintendo has been interested in making fun and interesting toys for people to play with. E-sports people are usually VERY SERIOUS about what they do, and often VERY PARTICULAR about how games work, and VERY VOCAL about changes to a game that radically changes how they've become accustomed to playing the game. Catering to money-making E-sports is generally incompatible with making fun and interesting toys... they're just two radically different and largely incompatible audiences.

smcl 4y ago
> they're just two radically different and largely incompatible audiences This is incorrect, and I think you're maybe missing some context. What is being referred to here isn't esports players being whiny or particular about changing a game in a way that would hurt casual users. What's happened a few times recently is that Nintendo were very heavy handed in cracking down on things like Smash Brothers e-sports tournaments: https://www.theverge.com/2022/11/30/23485811/nintendo-smash-world-tour-shut-down-event-tournament https://www.theverge.com/2022/11/30/23485811/nintendo-smash-... So here they have already made a game that is beloved by both casual players and professional players, and they seem really keen on cracking down on the latter group. They don't need to take any special steps to cater to e-sports players or tournaments, they just needed to not go out of their way to crack down on them.
- simoncion 4y ago
  No, I'm not missing any context. The E-sports audience is largely incompatible with the audience that enjoys playing with fun and interesting toys. Completely incompatible? No, and that's not what I said. In any sufficiently-large group there will be exceptions to that group's general tendencies. Were I Nintendo, I would definitely take pains to put a big damper on people and organizations who wanted to do "professional" E-sports to my toys... which seems to me to be exactly what they're doing.
  - smcl 4y ago
    Wait now you're now making a different point entirely. Before you suggested they shouldn't need to go out of their way to treat e-sports any differently (to accomodate them) because they're not the target market. Now you're saying they should go out of their way to treat them differently (to punish/hinder them) because they're not the target market? Look I get that e-sports isn't for everyone, it's certainly not for me. But this doesn't make sense, and I suspect that this push against e-sports or modding isn't coming from the creative minds behind the games themselves, but by management who couldn't care less about whether something is or is not a toy. It's the people who just want to see black on their end of year balance sheets and don't understand how e-sports or modding would impact that (including how it could even improve it)
    - simoncion 4y ago
      > Wait now you're now making a different point entirely. No. You misunderstood what I've been saying since the first paragraph of my initial post. I've been consistently saying that the E-sports is kinda awful, and that that scene is generally at odds with the sort of folks who like playing with fun and interesting toys. Once the E-sports locusts solidly descend on something, its nature gets changed (by association, at minimum). Nintendo clearly (and correctly) doesn't want that, so they're right to discourage it. They're a "fun and interesting toy" company, not a "professional, competitive e-sports games" company.
      - 4y ago

lemoncookiechip 4y ago

> This is pretty specifically a Nintendo thing. It used to be very much a Japanese game developer mentality (Sony excluded) to strike or at last claim gameplay videos. SEGA used to pull this all the time two back in the day, and still do for certain elements of games, like cutscenes in certain games like Persona (Atlus is a subsidiary). Nintendo just never stopped like you've articulated really well. They seem to hate that their most avid fans show how much love they have for their IPs.

noirscape 4y ago
SEGA literally DMCAed every single YouTube video of the original Shining Force to prevent people from comparing the original to the remake. As in, they searched Shining Force and send DMCA strikes to every single video they could find. They only backtracked after they got a literal metric fuckton of negative press due to it.
numpad0 4y ago
The criteria listed by noirscape way above is well laid out, and it's not just game developer. Dojinshi, AI arts... It's the Japanese mindset. The bundles of bank notes left on the table are, just, notes. Sales is just someone else's business. Those are never the point. If you call them first for a profit sharing scheme, only then sometimes some cares, but still it's more for the scheme. 0: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35597791 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35597791