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Is this post COVID pains or is it more fundamental, that the latest generation workers are not willing to take up the ATC staffing work and the overall pool of

Is this post COVID pains or is it more fundamental, that the latest generation workers are not willing to take up the ATC staffing work and the overall pool of talent is shrinking? I can easily see it as post COVID pains that training new ATC workers takes months to years.

woodruffw 4y ago
COVID probably didn’t do the FAA any favors, but it goes back further than that[1]: it’s hard to entice people to a high-stress job when the president can declare your union illegal and erase your entire career permanently. [1]: https://www.npr.org/2021/08/05/1025018833/looking-back-on-when-president-reagan-fired-air-traffic-controllers https://www.npr.org/2021/08/05/1025018833/looking-back-on-wh...
- ars 4y ago
  That's not unique to an air traffic controller. If you are warned if you don't go to work you'll be fired, and you don't go to work, then guess what? You will be fired. That's true in basically any industry.
  - Scalene2 4y ago
    Have you ever heard of unions and strikes?
  - woodruffw 4y ago
    ATCs are government employees, not in industry. And they belonged to a union, through which they engaged in collective bargaining (as is their right, under federal law). The actual circumstances of their firing are worth reading about: striking is legal for unions except for unions of government employees, for whom it is explicitly illegal. What makes the situation unusual is the extreme response by the Reagan administration.
  - DangitBobby 4y ago
    Rely belies the notion that the arrangement between businesses and workers is symmetrical, doesn't it?
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- vxNsr 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - dang 4y ago
    You broke the site guidelines with this comment and unfortunately have been breaking them in other places too recently (e.g. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35600201 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35600201). Could you please stop this? It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. We have to ban accounts that do it repeatedly, and we've already had to warn you about this more than once before - in fact it has been a problem for many years: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27498333 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27498333 (June 2021) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27498325 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27498325 (June 2021) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23718800 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23718800 (July 2020) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17529091 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17529091 (July 2018) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15958523 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15958523 (Dec 2017)
- HarryHirsch 4y ago
  Also the railways - when your president can override your union and force you back to work no need to make the railways your career.
- irjustin 4y ago
  This was 40 years ago? Regan? I don't think it directly affects people's thinking today.
  - woodruffw 4y ago
    It was a watershed moment in labor relations, and is well within living memory. Combined with the fact that ATC requires specialized training, and it would be surprising for it to not affect peoples’ career choices.
    - irjustin 4y ago
      For you, I 100% agree, but for those who were "born into this problem" (including myself), this is simply "just-the-way-things-are"^tm. An analogy is, "how did 9/11 affect you?". I was born in 83. I can talk about this for hours. Anyone born after (or even near it) just know that TSA is a fact of life with that time when "airplanes crashed into some towers". -And this is the next generation of ATC controllers. Unions, labor relations, Regan, etc for those under 30 have no idea.
      - woodruffw 4y ago
        I’m under 30, so I was also “born into this problem”! Younger people also know aviation history, even if they don’t have the visceral experiences of the past. Reagan’s mass firing of ATCs is also a landmark in his domestic policy; I would expect most high school graduates to be at least aware of it.
        irjustin 4y ago
        Then color me impressed. But sadly, I believe you're in the minority... a very small one, that is under 40 and have their viewpoint include Regan's actions.
rr808 4y ago
Bro, every gen z person I know doesn't ever want a job where they have to leave the house.
- didgetmaster 4y ago
  You mean that you can't direct a plane full of people that it has clearance to land on runway 3 from your mother's basement while using an 8 year old laptop connected to the Internet via a wifi router???
- lotsofpulp 4y ago
  This is not accurate. There exists a number $x for which many, if not all “gen z” persons would be willing to leave their house. It is always a question of pay to quality of life ratios. Now that there exist jobs that provide higher quality of life due to broadband internet, other jobs with lower quality of life have to increase pay to compete for quality candidates.
  - xyzzy_plugh 4y ago
    I'd posit that the number, $x, is beyond reach realistically. Sure such a number exists but it's probably not worth the conversation if it's astronomic. In my case, there is no such number: either the requirements cannot be met remotely in which case the occupation is novel and uninteresting to me or the employer is unwilling to let me work remotely for equal pay in which case the lack of respect is mutual. Outside of exigent circumstances there simply is no such number for me.
    - everforward 4y ago
      I think there may be some truth here. My observation has been that remote work is often a perk of already good jobs with good pay. I don't see a lot of minimum wage remote work. A good chunk of remote workers don't strictly _need_ more money, and are unlikely to be enticed with a 10% raise. I'm kind of in the same boat as you. I work remotely, and am not particularly interested in going back to the office. I probably do have a $x that would get me back in the office, but it would probably take something like a 50-100% total comp raise. I'm doubtful anyone wants to pay that, and even if they did I'd be concerned about job security at that level of pay.

woodruffw 4y ago

COVID probably didn’t do the FAA any favors, but it goes back further than that[1]: it’s hard to entice people to a high-stress job when the president can declare your union illegal and erase your entire career permanently. [1]: https://www.npr.org/2021/08/05/1025018833/looking-back-on-when-president-reagan-fired-air-traffic-controllers https://www.npr.org/2021/08/05/1025018833/looking-back-on-wh...

ars 4y ago
That's not unique to an air traffic controller. If you are warned if you don't go to work you'll be fired, and you don't go to work, then guess what? You will be fired. That's true in basically any industry.
- Scalene2 4y ago
  Have you ever heard of unions and strikes?
- woodruffw 4y ago
  ATCs are government employees, not in industry. And they belonged to a union, through which they engaged in collective bargaining (as is their right, under federal law). The actual circumstances of their firing are worth reading about: striking is legal for unions except for unions of government employees, for whom it is explicitly illegal. What makes the situation unusual is the extreme response by the Reagan administration.
- DangitBobby 4y ago
  Rely belies the notion that the arrangement between businesses and workers is symmetrical, doesn't it?
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
vxNsr 4y ago
[flagged]
- dang 4y ago
  You broke the site guidelines with this comment and unfortunately have been breaking them in other places too recently (e.g. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35600201 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35600201). Could you please stop this? It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. We have to ban accounts that do it repeatedly, and we've already had to warn you about this more than once before - in fact it has been a problem for many years: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27498333 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27498333 (June 2021) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27498325 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27498325 (June 2021) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23718800 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23718800 (July 2020) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17529091 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17529091 (July 2018) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15958523 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15958523 (Dec 2017)
HarryHirsch 4y ago
Also the railways - when your president can override your union and force you back to work no need to make the railways your career.
irjustin 4y ago
This was 40 years ago? Regan? I don't think it directly affects people's thinking today.
- woodruffw 4y ago
  It was a watershed moment in labor relations, and is well within living memory. Combined with the fact that ATC requires specialized training, and it would be surprising for it to not affect peoples’ career choices.
  - irjustin 4y ago
    For you, I 100% agree, but for those who were "born into this problem" (including myself), this is simply "just-the-way-things-are"^tm. An analogy is, "how did 9/11 affect you?". I was born in 83. I can talk about this for hours. Anyone born after (or even near it) just know that TSA is a fact of life with that time when "airplanes crashed into some towers". -And this is the next generation of ATC controllers. Unions, labor relations, Regan, etc for those under 30 have no idea.
    - woodruffw 4y ago
      I’m under 30, so I was also “born into this problem”! Younger people also know aviation history, even if they don’t have the visceral experiences of the past. Reagan’s mass firing of ATCs is also a landmark in his domestic policy; I would expect most high school graduates to be at least aware of it.
      - irjustin 4y ago
        Then color me impressed. But sadly, I believe you're in the minority... a very small one, that is under 40 and have their viewpoint include Regan's actions.

rr808 4y ago

Bro, every gen z person I know doesn't ever want a job where they have to leave the house.

didgetmaster 4y ago
You mean that you can't direct a plane full of people that it has clearance to land on runway 3 from your mother's basement while using an 8 year old laptop connected to the Internet via a wifi router???
lotsofpulp 4y ago
This is not accurate. There exists a number $x for which many, if not all “gen z” persons would be willing to leave their house. It is always a question of pay to quality of life ratios. Now that there exist jobs that provide higher quality of life due to broadband internet, other jobs with lower quality of life have to increase pay to compete for quality candidates.
- xyzzy_plugh 4y ago
  I'd posit that the number, $x, is beyond reach realistically. Sure such a number exists but it's probably not worth the conversation if it's astronomic. In my case, there is no such number: either the requirements cannot be met remotely in which case the occupation is novel and uninteresting to me or the employer is unwilling to let me work remotely for equal pay in which case the lack of respect is mutual. Outside of exigent circumstances there simply is no such number for me.
  - everforward 4y ago
    I think there may be some truth here. My observation has been that remote work is often a perk of already good jobs with good pay. I don't see a lot of minimum wage remote work. A good chunk of remote workers don't strictly _need_ more money, and are unlikely to be enticed with a 10% raise. I'm kind of in the same boat as you. I work remotely, and am not particularly interested in going back to the office. I probably do have a $x that would get me back in the office, but it would probably take something like a 50-100% total comp raise. I'm doubtful anyone wants to pay that, and even if they did I'd be concerned about job security at that level of pay.