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>Kids aren’t going to work on the farm or in a factory. They need the math!!! As someone who fucking hated and still hates academical math: No, kids do not nee

>Kids aren’t going to work on the farm or in a factory. They need the math!!! As someone who fucking hated and still hates academical math: No, kids do not need math. Not in the sense as taught in schools, anyway. That is a straight waste of precious time. What kids need is broader context and guidance for what math is, how it applies to the world around us, how we can use it, and why it's important. Fuck quadratic equations and counting slices of pie, none of that literal bullshit is useful as taught to kids today.

thethirdone 4y ago
> As someone who fucking hated and still hates academical math: No, kids do not need math. Not in the sense as taught in schools, anyway. That is a straight waste of precious time. Would you mind explaining why you still hate math? It seems like a strange thing to hate except for trauma from school. Are you referring to K-12 level math only? Math at the college level is very useful. Most of the math I was taught in K-12 was just how to calculate (which is mostly useless in a world with computers) and basic algebra. Basic algebra is useful, but only really as a building block to more powerful math. > What kids need is broader context and guidance for what math is, how it applies to the world around us, how we can use it, and why it's important. Fuck quadratic equations and counting slices of pie, none of that literal bullshit is useful as taught to kids today. I completely agree that math curriculum in the US needs a significant overhaul to be more useful, more interesting and a better base for learning advanced mathmatics. Actually coming up with a detailed curriculum that students can follow is pretty difficult. As someone who found K-12 math really easy and boring, I was very peeved when I found out in college that there is a bunch of fun math that I could have been learning throughout school.
- starik36 4y ago
  > Math at the college level is very useful Useful to whom? I've been coding for 30 years and the most complicated math ever I used was for calculating distance between two lat/lon points and even that I looked up. Is it useful to an average worker sitting in front of a PC? I do not believe so.
  - stcroixx 4y ago
    25 years doing dev work, also never used anything more than basic arithmetic. I barely passed my college math requirements - still don’t understand what calculus is for, never came up writing CRUD apps.
- Dalewyn 4y ago
  >Would you mind explaining why you still hate math? I apologize if I didn't make myself clear: I hate academical math. I love math, especially once I realized how truly relevant it is to quite literally everything around me. It was computer programming, long after and outside my academical times, that taught me what math really was about. Suddenly, all those numbers and letters had actual meanings and values to them, I learned I could manipulate them to store and mean literally anything. It was a mindblowing paradigm shift in my way of understanding and thinking everything. All the teachers and textbooks in the world failed to teach me the true value and purpose of math, and I loathe them for wasting my time with their absolute failure.
  - n4r9 4y ago
    I hope that some day you manage to let go of your hatred.
samtho 4y ago
I’m sorry you had a poor experience with math in an academic setting. I agree that this is what kids need, the problem with this particular failing of just nixing Algebra is that we’ve not actually innovated in the way we communicate the ideas and techniques used to solve problems. Perhaps the biggest failing with academic math is that it is geared towards a subset of students who can suspend curiosity in order to memorize equations and learn precisely the place to apply them. These are often the students who dislike word problems because it causes them to actually think about the work they are doing. That is to say, I don’t hold contempt for these students as they are just optimizing their academic experience - there is no room for actual rational thinking with how math is taught. My point here is that everyone loses: those who want to bring rationality and purpose into math are left behind because they cannot keep up due to pesky curiosity and those who can parrot equations and mechanically solve trivial problems are lured into the false sense of deep knowledge their grades would suggest. We need to do better for our students but nobody in a position to enact change actually cares enough to do the legwork in revamping how we teach and communicate mathematics or any other subjects for that matter.
akomtu 4y ago
How otherwise are you going to develop abstract thinking? There's a huge boulder in front of you and you need to hire a truck to move it. But to do that you need to know the weight of the boulder. How do you measure it? Or there is a very tall tree you need to cut down, but if the tree is too tall, it might fall on your house. How do you measure its height?
- eternityforest 4y ago
  Math is great, but examples like that are pretty unconvincing. The real value is in solving new problems that nobody has encountered before. I'm not good at math, so I have no idea what I'd use it for. I'd probably get a high end tech job working with advanced stuff, and whatever I was doing there would be stuff that made no sense to someone who doesn't already know math. It's exactly the kind of leap of faith that young people seem to be uninterested in. People have figured out by now that they will always have a calculator 99% of the time, and probably won't need math in the remaining 1%, Google can tell you how to do niche stuff that doesn't come up a lot, and lots of the stuff you use math for also requires specialist equipment, so you'll probably just hire someone. Perhaps if we had more of a DIY culture. But even then, I do a lot of DIY work and almost never encounter math, because I've got FreeCAD. And even though I'm vaguely aware of they Pythagorean theorem, I doubt I'd use it to find the height of a tree, I'd draw it as a sketch and use a constraint solver, actually seeing the triangle on the screen would make it a little clearer if there was a mistake, and it's one less calculation to mess up. Or, I'd just use the height feature on the laser measurement tool. I do have friends who use math in real life, but I rarely see them do anything they couldn't do with an understanding of what software can do, rather than an understanding of the actual physics. And yet everyone seems to say they are very happy to have learned it, and most of our big innovations are from people who know it. I think the important part is how do you convey the benefit of math without saying anything people will immediately recognize as kind of an exaggeration. Math isn't directly useful in an average person's life, it gives people the possibility of doing certain things average people don't do, and lets people understand things, that are not always obvious ahead of time why you would want to understand them.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
mindcandy 4y ago
Totally agree. AFAICT, our math curriculum has been set for a hundred years by mathematicians. People who by some quirk of their upbringing were extremely strongly motivated to dig deep into mathematics. Naturally, the mathematicians laid out for everyone the short path to deep competence in advanced math as fast as possible. Only seems obvious to them. This path ignores the obvious fact that 99.5% of students are not intrinsically motivated to persevere through the decade-long marathon to reach PHD level math. No one in the kids’ lives ever made it clear why this is a goal worth investing in. Even their teachers don’t know. Not well enough to explain it. It’s not even assumed you grok the fun puzzle game that is math. Instead, math is presented as an unending series of seemingly arbitrary rules that all strictly build on each other, eventually leading to an end goal of… … … You are simply required to memorize these rules because if you fail you are a failure. And, maybe if you are unlucky you will utilize something more advanced than basic arithmetic twice a year for the rest of your life. The reality is that math is tremendously interesting and useful and fun. But, all the life was sucked out of it from the beginning of public education. Before the common kids had a chance to even be presented with the idea that math can be fun. We gotta turn this around. Present math as the game that is it. Not a “gamification” to artificially push you into doing things you don’t want to do. But, something that’s actually fun to do in itself.
- opportune 4y ago
  I don’t agree with this at all. I studied math way past high school and what you learn up until the last 2 years of a standard undergrad curriculum does not even approach what mathematicians do or care about. It’s not even putting you on the PhD track at all, to the contrary, the weird detour into calculus/statistics/non-theoretical linear algebra from an applied perspective sets you back a solid 2 years if you’re following a standard curriculum. The current math curriculum is about giving people a strong base for using math outside mathematics itself, in case they want to study physics or some other science, or engineering. Mathematicians do not generally give a shit about the computational aspect (it’s not what math is about, generally speaking) which you spend most of your time doing in math curricula until you’re at the point where further studying math suggests you are interested in math itself. The vast majority of people who struggle in math IME have at least one of two problems: one is they struggle with it and put up some mental barrier of being “bad at math”, the other is they fell behind at some point and the curriculum kept chugging along with no chance for the student to catch up (which just makes the subsequent material fail to stick and confusing). This has nothing to do with some nefarious mathematicians’ agenda and everything to do with the school system not allowing students to progress at different rates based on proficiency.
hardware2win 4y ago
Practicing Math means practicing logic This is the most powerful tool for making your life easier
- Dalewyn 4y ago
  I was only ever taught to rote memorize equations and ways to manipulate numbers, I was never taught the hows and whys. Therefore, there was nothing logical about academical math and it didn't help me think logically about anything.
  - hardware2win 4y ago
    You were never tasked with solving e.g equations? E.g x + 4 = 13 - 2x? Or using derivatives to find optimal material amount needed? Which would be tricky to memorize 100% Like how could you even manage thru a lot of years and exams purely on memory? You gotta understand somewhat this stuff. Just because you dont know how to reinvent derivatives and integrals then it doesnt mean that there is no logic involved
    - Dalewyn 4y ago
      >You were never tasked with solving e.g equations? E.g x + 4 = 13 - 2x? Sure I was, but what does "x + 4 = 13 - 2x" actually mean? That sheer lack of context is what I hate about academical math. WTF is the point of it all? The answer is there is no point, other than scoring adequately on tests so teachers can collect their paychecks and schools their funding. >You gotta understand somewhat this stuff. I was never taught to understand, I was only ever taught to do. That is meaningless and, as far as I've experienced, still irrelevant in my life to this very day.
      - hardware2win 4y ago
        >WTF is the point of it all? Practice of math and logic. >That sheer lack of context is what I hate about academical math. Isnt this beautiful? Math doesnt need context, especially cultural context. We dont need examples with apples, cars or money to do the math. Sure, they are helpful for kids, but at some point they are so used to abstract concepts that theres no need for that. So not only logic is being practiced, but also abstract thinking. >still irrelevant in my life to this very day. We dont do math just to apply some random ass formulas. As ive said it improves logical and abstract thinking. Both of them can make significant impact on someones life. It can be seen everywhere in real life, especially during arguments.

thethirdone 4y ago

> As someone who fucking hated and still hates academical math: No, kids do not need math. Not in the sense as taught in schools, anyway. That is a straight waste of precious time. Would you mind explaining why you still hate math? It seems like a strange thing to hate except for trauma from school. Are you referring to K-12 level math only? Math at the college level is very useful. Most of the math I was taught in K-12 was just how to calculate (which is mostly useless in a world with computers) and basic algebra. Basic algebra is useful, but only really as a building block to more powerful math. > What kids need is broader context and guidance for what math is, how it applies to the world around us, how we can use it, and why it's important. Fuck quadratic equations and counting slices of pie, none of that literal bullshit is useful as taught to kids today. I completely agree that math curriculum in the US needs a significant overhaul to be more useful, more interesting and a better base for learning advanced mathmatics. Actually coming up with a detailed curriculum that students can follow is pretty difficult. As someone who found K-12 math really easy and boring, I was very peeved when I found out in college that there is a bunch of fun math that I could have been learning throughout school.

starik36 4y ago
> Math at the college level is very useful Useful to whom? I've been coding for 30 years and the most complicated math ever I used was for calculating distance between two lat/lon points and even that I looked up. Is it useful to an average worker sitting in front of a PC? I do not believe so.
- stcroixx 4y ago
  25 years doing dev work, also never used anything more than basic arithmetic. I barely passed my college math requirements - still don’t understand what calculus is for, never came up writing CRUD apps.
Dalewyn 4y ago
>Would you mind explaining why you still hate math? I apologize if I didn't make myself clear: I hate academical math. I love math, especially once I realized how truly relevant it is to quite literally everything around me. It was computer programming, long after and outside my academical times, that taught me what math really was about. Suddenly, all those numbers and letters had actual meanings and values to them, I learned I could manipulate them to store and mean literally anything. It was a mindblowing paradigm shift in my way of understanding and thinking everything. All the teachers and textbooks in the world failed to teach me the true value and purpose of math, and I loathe them for wasting my time with their absolute failure.
- n4r9 4y ago
  I hope that some day you manage to let go of your hatred.

samtho 4y ago

I’m sorry you had a poor experience with math in an academic setting. I agree that this is what kids need, the problem with this particular failing of just nixing Algebra is that we’ve not actually innovated in the way we communicate the ideas and techniques used to solve problems. Perhaps the biggest failing with academic math is that it is geared towards a subset of students who can suspend curiosity in order to memorize equations and learn precisely the place to apply them. These are often the students who dislike word problems because it causes them to actually think about the work they are doing. That is to say, I don’t hold contempt for these students as they are just optimizing their academic experience - there is no room for actual rational thinking with how math is taught. My point here is that everyone loses: those who want to bring rationality and purpose into math are left behind because they cannot keep up due to pesky curiosity and those who can parrot equations and mechanically solve trivial problems are lured into the false sense of deep knowledge their grades would suggest. We need to do better for our students but nobody in a position to enact change actually cares enough to do the legwork in revamping how we teach and communicate mathematics or any other subjects for that matter.

akomtu 4y ago

How otherwise are you going to develop abstract thinking? There's a huge boulder in front of you and you need to hire a truck to move it. But to do that you need to know the weight of the boulder. How do you measure it? Or there is a very tall tree you need to cut down, but if the tree is too tall, it might fall on your house. How do you measure its height?

eternityforest 4y ago
Math is great, but examples like that are pretty unconvincing. The real value is in solving new problems that nobody has encountered before. I'm not good at math, so I have no idea what I'd use it for. I'd probably get a high end tech job working with advanced stuff, and whatever I was doing there would be stuff that made no sense to someone who doesn't already know math. It's exactly the kind of leap of faith that young people seem to be uninterested in. People have figured out by now that they will always have a calculator 99% of the time, and probably won't need math in the remaining 1%, Google can tell you how to do niche stuff that doesn't come up a lot, and lots of the stuff you use math for also requires specialist equipment, so you'll probably just hire someone. Perhaps if we had more of a DIY culture. But even then, I do a lot of DIY work and almost never encounter math, because I've got FreeCAD. And even though I'm vaguely aware of they Pythagorean theorem, I doubt I'd use it to find the height of a tree, I'd draw it as a sketch and use a constraint solver, actually seeing the triangle on the screen would make it a little clearer if there was a mistake, and it's one less calculation to mess up. Or, I'd just use the height feature on the laser measurement tool. I do have friends who use math in real life, but I rarely see them do anything they couldn't do with an understanding of what software can do, rather than an understanding of the actual physics. And yet everyone seems to say they are very happy to have learned it, and most of our big innovations are from people who know it. I think the important part is how do you convey the benefit of math without saying anything people will immediately recognize as kind of an exaggeration. Math isn't directly useful in an average person's life, it gives people the possibility of doing certain things average people don't do, and lets people understand things, that are not always obvious ahead of time why you would want to understand them.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

mindcandy 4y ago

Totally agree. AFAICT, our math curriculum has been set for a hundred years by mathematicians. People who by some quirk of their upbringing were extremely strongly motivated to dig deep into mathematics. Naturally, the mathematicians laid out for everyone the short path to deep competence in advanced math as fast as possible. Only seems obvious to them. This path ignores the obvious fact that 99.5% of students are not intrinsically motivated to persevere through the decade-long marathon to reach PHD level math. No one in the kids’ lives ever made it clear why this is a goal worth investing in. Even their teachers don’t know. Not well enough to explain it. It’s not even assumed you grok the fun puzzle game that is math. Instead, math is presented as an unending series of seemingly arbitrary rules that all strictly build on each other, eventually leading to an end goal of… … … You are simply required to memorize these rules because if you fail you are a failure. And, maybe if you are unlucky you will utilize something more advanced than basic arithmetic twice a year for the rest of your life. The reality is that math is tremendously interesting and useful and fun. But, all the life was sucked out of it from the beginning of public education. Before the common kids had a chance to even be presented with the idea that math can be fun. We gotta turn this around. Present math as the game that is it. Not a “gamification” to artificially push you into doing things you don’t want to do. But, something that’s actually fun to do in itself.

opportune 4y ago
I don’t agree with this at all. I studied math way past high school and what you learn up until the last 2 years of a standard undergrad curriculum does not even approach what mathematicians do or care about. It’s not even putting you on the PhD track at all, to the contrary, the weird detour into calculus/statistics/non-theoretical linear algebra from an applied perspective sets you back a solid 2 years if you’re following a standard curriculum. The current math curriculum is about giving people a strong base for using math outside mathematics itself, in case they want to study physics or some other science, or engineering. Mathematicians do not generally give a shit about the computational aspect (it’s not what math is about, generally speaking) which you spend most of your time doing in math curricula until you’re at the point where further studying math suggests you are interested in math itself. The vast majority of people who struggle in math IME have at least one of two problems: one is they struggle with it and put up some mental barrier of being “bad at math”, the other is they fell behind at some point and the curriculum kept chugging along with no chance for the student to catch up (which just makes the subsequent material fail to stick and confusing). This has nothing to do with some nefarious mathematicians’ agenda and everything to do with the school system not allowing students to progress at different rates based on proficiency.

hardware2win 4y ago

Practicing Math means practicing logic This is the most powerful tool for making your life easier

Dalewyn 4y ago
I was only ever taught to rote memorize equations and ways to manipulate numbers, I was never taught the hows and whys. Therefore, there was nothing logical about academical math and it didn't help me think logically about anything.
- hardware2win 4y ago
  You were never tasked with solving e.g equations? E.g x + 4 = 13 - 2x? Or using derivatives to find optimal material amount needed? Which would be tricky to memorize 100% Like how could you even manage thru a lot of years and exams purely on memory? You gotta understand somewhat this stuff. Just because you dont know how to reinvent derivatives and integrals then it doesnt mean that there is no logic involved
  - Dalewyn 4y ago
    >You were never tasked with solving e.g equations? E.g x + 4 = 13 - 2x? Sure I was, but what does "x + 4 = 13 - 2x" actually mean? That sheer lack of context is what I hate about academical math. WTF is the point of it all? The answer is there is no point, other than scoring adequately on tests so teachers can collect their paychecks and schools their funding. >You gotta understand somewhat this stuff. I was never taught to understand, I was only ever taught to do. That is meaningless and, as far as I've experienced, still irrelevant in my life to this very day.
    - hardware2win 4y ago
      >WTF is the point of it all? Practice of math and logic. >That sheer lack of context is what I hate about academical math. Isnt this beautiful? Math doesnt need context, especially cultural context. We dont need examples with apples, cars or money to do the math. Sure, they are helpful for kids, but at some point they are so used to abstract concepts that theres no need for that. So not only logic is being practiced, but also abstract thinking. >still irrelevant in my life to this very day. We dont do math just to apply some random ass formulas. As ive said it improves logical and abstract thinking. Both of them can make significant impact on someones life. It can be seen everywhere in real life, especially during arguments.