4 ms·

My contrarian take is that algebra and calculus are pre requisites for for ap calc which is primarily used for elite college admission decisions.

social_quotient 4y ago
Is the word Elite needed?
- airtonix 4y ago
  [dead]
- theGnuMe 4y ago
  It's really about SAT test prep which is primarily used for Elite admissions decisions when all else is equal.
imgabe 4y ago
Algebra is basic math that every adult should know in and of itself, not something that is only needed to take AP calculus.
- theGnuMe 4y ago
  Nobody said otherwise. It's still there in high school fwiw: https://www.sfusd.edu/learning/curriculum/high-school/mathematics/algebra-1 https://www.sfusd.edu/learning/curriculum/high-school/mathem... This is about dropping algebra I in 8th grade which is where you need to take it in order to prep for AP exams and the SAT basically. Algebra I (8th), trig/Geometry 9th, Algebra II 10th, pre-calc/ calculus 11th, AP calc 12th. Anyway, these are all basically memorization and it is more important to teach mathematical reasoning and understanding skills vs pattern matching. I mean ChatGPT LLMs score a 5 on AP calc now for god sakes. However, it scores a 2 on ap English language comprehension and literature. Oh the irony. https://www.thestar.com/business/technology/2023/03/14/chatgpts-getting-an-upgrade-but-it-still-cant-pass-ap-english-class.html https://www.thestar.com/business/technology/2023/03/14/chatg...
  - imgabe 4y ago
    Even if they aren't taking AP Calc, starting algebra in 8th grade means they get an extra year of practice with it. What is the benefit of having less practice with algebra?
zdragnar 4y ago
Memorizing things like SOHCAHTOA and FOIL may not be a vital life skill for everyone, but everyone can benefit from the base logical thinking required to identify a variable, break a problem down into steps, plan and execute a solution. At a bare minimum, the basics of algebra (and to a lesser extent precalc, such as understanding limits and differentials) foster a type of abstract thinking and skills that pretty much anyone can benefit from.
- theGnuMe 4y ago
  Except that the traditional way of teaching the subject does not reason from first principles which is what you are advocating. The new math stuff does... I think parents hate it cause we don't understand it and it screws up the college pipeline. To illustrate my point of the uselessness of our conventional mathematical training. ChatGPT gets a 700 out of 800 on the SAT Math section, but ask ChatGPT a reasoning question that requires math... it can't do it. That shows you just how useless the SAT actually is except for training kids to pattern match.
  - ekidd 4y ago
    ChatGPT 4's math abilities are really hit or miss. I asked it to act as a "Socratic tutor" for the de-biasing terms in exponential moving averages. And it walked me through the problem, and it actually pointed out errors in my derivation (even though I was using a half-baked mix of Unicode and LaTeX). That was honestly pretty impressive. On the other hand, GPT 3.5 is painfully bad at basic arithmetic. Apparently it can add long numbers, but you actually need to explain the addition algorithm and give it some examples. Then it can walk through the process step by step, just like an elementary school student. In a lot of cases, I suspect ChatGPT 4 is pulling from a tiny corner of the training distribution. It has seen most of the web, and it doesn't need to see things often to talk about them. I've seen it successfully summarize the contents of obscure personal blogs, or of a very minor news story that was current for a week in 2009. So it wouldn't surprise me if GPT 4 performs well on tasks that are mentioned on a half dozen obscure web pages, or something like that.
- brnaftr361 4y ago

social_quotient 4y ago

Is the word Elite needed?

airtonix 4y ago
[dead]
theGnuMe 4y ago
It's really about SAT test prep which is primarily used for Elite admissions decisions when all else is equal.

imgabe 4y ago

Algebra is basic math that every adult should know in and of itself, not something that is only needed to take AP calculus.

theGnuMe 4y ago
Nobody said otherwise. It's still there in high school fwiw: https://www.sfusd.edu/learning/curriculum/high-school/mathematics/algebra-1 https://www.sfusd.edu/learning/curriculum/high-school/mathem... This is about dropping algebra I in 8th grade which is where you need to take it in order to prep for AP exams and the SAT basically. Algebra I (8th), trig/Geometry 9th, Algebra II 10th, pre-calc/ calculus 11th, AP calc 12th. Anyway, these are all basically memorization and it is more important to teach mathematical reasoning and understanding skills vs pattern matching. I mean ChatGPT LLMs score a 5 on AP calc now for god sakes. However, it scores a 2 on ap English language comprehension and literature. Oh the irony. https://www.thestar.com/business/technology/2023/03/14/chatgpts-getting-an-upgrade-but-it-still-cant-pass-ap-english-class.html https://www.thestar.com/business/technology/2023/03/14/chatg...
- imgabe 4y ago
  Even if they aren't taking AP Calc, starting algebra in 8th grade means they get an extra year of practice with it. What is the benefit of having less practice with algebra?

zdragnar 4y ago

Memorizing things like SOHCAHTOA and FOIL may not be a vital life skill for everyone, but everyone can benefit from the base logical thinking required to identify a variable, break a problem down into steps, plan and execute a solution. At a bare minimum, the basics of algebra (and to a lesser extent precalc, such as understanding limits and differentials) foster a type of abstract thinking and skills that pretty much anyone can benefit from.

theGnuMe 4y ago
Except that the traditional way of teaching the subject does not reason from first principles which is what you are advocating. The new math stuff does... I think parents hate it cause we don't understand it and it screws up the college pipeline. To illustrate my point of the uselessness of our conventional mathematical training. ChatGPT gets a 700 out of 800 on the SAT Math section, but ask ChatGPT a reasoning question that requires math... it can't do it. That shows you just how useless the SAT actually is except for training kids to pattern match.
- ekidd 4y ago
  ChatGPT 4's math abilities are really hit or miss. I asked it to act as a "Socratic tutor" for the de-biasing terms in exponential moving averages. And it walked me through the problem, and it actually pointed out errors in my derivation (even though I was using a half-baked mix of Unicode and LaTeX). That was honestly pretty impressive. On the other hand, GPT 3.5 is painfully bad at basic arithmetic. Apparently it can add long numbers, but you actually need to explain the addition algorithm and give it some examples. Then it can walk through the process step by step, just like an elementary school student. In a lot of cases, I suspect ChatGPT 4 is pulling from a tiny corner of the training distribution. It has seen most of the web, and it doesn't need to see things often to talk about them. I've seen it successfully summarize the contents of obscure personal blogs, or of a very minor news story that was current for a week in 2009. So it wouldn't surprise me if GPT 4 performs well on tasks that are mentioned on a half dozen obscure web pages, or something like that.
brnaftr361 4y ago