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> So even when there are a lot of guns, and mental health issues, there is still a way to prevent daily mass shootings. Sure. Except mass shootings aren't dail

> So even when there are a lot of guns, and mental health issues, there is still a way to prevent daily mass shootings. Sure. Except mass shootings aren't daily, and the way to do it is to raise the cost of doing so, not to take away the right of self-defense. > People who are enthusiastic about guns are responsible for the culture you've created around guns, and the laws on the books for guns. This is very wrong in my experience. I grew up in rural Idaho where people were enthusiastic about guns. They were incredibly careful around guns and always taught me that guns are tools, not toys. You know what depicts guns as toys? Hollywood. Video games. Other pop culture. Gangs. It's the depiction of guns as toys or as a method to get your way that is bad, and I never saw that growing up. Perhaps that's why there really aren't mass shootings at rural schools. > So then what good is it doing? Peace of mind. More on that later. > But... what you just told me contradicts this. You were so fearful of the world that you brought your gun, because you felt that you might be compelled to use it. Actually, because I had the weapon, I felt less fearful. You said yourself that your experiences were terrifying. My experience was not for me because I had a backup plan. You were terrified and fearful. I was not. Thus, it was not a contradiction. And you say that plenty of terrifying experiences are resolved without guns. That's true, but it only takes once for that to be catastrophically untrue. But plenty of such things are resolved because of guns. [1] Also, the reason I bought a gun and started carrying? The George Floyd riots. There were shootings by rioters, which for the most part were not the people you claim are responsible for gun culture. And by the way, I pulled a slight trick on you. Notice that I said I never drew my "weapon" in that experience. You automatically assumed I had a gun. I didn't. I had a knife. There is one big reason why. I'm more confident with knives than guns, to remain safe and reduce collateral damage. I carry this knife everywhere I can, even when I don't feel unsafe because it helps me feel less fearful and gives me another option. As it turns out, that incident happened in a place I previously felt completely safe in. But I still had my knife which gave me another option should things have gone south. "When seconds matter, the police are minutes away." So I wasn't carrying because I was fearful. I was carrying because I was prepared. It's funny, though; I could probably walk into a Rust event with this knife, and I would not be breaking any rules. Yet I'm sure you would not like it anyway. That shows how terrible this policy is because it only targets one thing that the Rust Foundation does not like and does not really address what people like you don't like. As another nail in your argument that it's people like me responsible for this culture, those same people are the reason why I feel less confident with guns than knives. I went shooting with those people a few times in my youth. In every single one, I made small mistakes with the guns, and every time, I got corrected strongly, even though I almost never made the same mistake twice. In fact, I often was corrected so strongly and publicly that I actually felt shame. It got to the point that I stopped using guns and never touched a gun for a decade and a half (except for once in basic training). Those "enthusiastic" people actually put me off of guns. So much for spreading gun culture. Thus, I have a hard time believing your argument. You know what would change the gun culture? Having everyone take the same safety classes that I did, to learn how to be safe, and if they are not safe, they should be chewed out by instructors like the people in my youth did me. Then the very poor depiction of guns in movies and pop culture would be more easily ignored and changed for the better as well since people will call out the people who make that pop culture. Politics is a poor way of changing culture because "politics are downstream from culture." You would be swimming upstream. And if the Rust Foundation are going to require events to not allow guns, then perhaps they should pay for armed security to compensate? Event organizers will probably have to. [1]: https://fee.org/articles/guns-prevent-thousands-of-crimes-every-day-research-show/ https://fee.org/articles/guns-prevent-thousands-of-crimes-ev...

ModernMech 4y ago
> Sure. Except mass shootings aren't daily, and the way to do it is to raise the cost of doing so, not to take away the right of self-defense. On average, yes, there is a mass shooting in the US every day: https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/24/us/mass-shootings-fast-facts/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/24/us/mass-shootings-fast-facts/... It's been 105 days since Jan 1, and there have been 163 mass shootings. If you look at the first chart in this link, this year is on track to have more mass shootings than any year on record: https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/24/us/how-many-mass-shootings-2023-dg-xpn/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/24/us/how-many-mass-shootings-20... Also, by "raise the cost of doing so" do you mean raise the cost of guns? Or what? Either way, no one is talking about taking away the right of self-defense in general; we've been talking about restricting the presence of firearms at a conference. As always, when you are attacked you have the right to defend yourself. > This is very wrong in my experience. I grew up in rural Idaho where people were enthusiastic about guns. They were incredibly careful around guns and always taught me that guns are tools, not toys. Unfortunately, the gun culture of safety which you describe has not been properly exported from rural Idaho. Gun enthusiasts have failed, and the result is that we have a sick culture of gun enthusiasts. It would be great if we could have a lot of guns and have a culture of gun safety like Sweden, but that's not the gun culture I see around me in America. The culture of safety and respect for guns is foreign to me; instead I see a lot of braggadocio, toxic masculinity, threats, fake patriotism, and a general disrespect for the awesome power of these weapons. They are fetishized and people wrap their entire identities around their weapons. That's not the culture you describe. > You know what depicts guns as toys? Hollywood. Video games. Other pop culture. Gangs. Sure, and I'll agree that's part of sick gun culture. > Perhaps that's why there really aren't mass shootings at rural schools. So you're admitting there are still mass shootings at rural schools despite a culture of gun safety and proliferation of guns in the community? > Actually, because I had the weapon, I felt less fearful. You said yourself that your experiences were terrifying. My experience was not for me because I had a backup plan. I've already said that it's great that you want to defend your family, and it's great that you were able to control yourself and not attack anyone. You said you grew up in a culture that respects guns and you took classes. Good on you. But I'll still note that you chose to have the weapon on you, and what drove that decision? Because you felt less safe without it, it seems. You were afraid, then equipped a weapon, then you were less afraid. Okay, no shame in that. But you're not everyone. Politicians are passing laws to make it easier for people to buy guns, without also making sure that safe gun culture proliferates. What's happened is that gun enthusiasts have created an "eternal September" situation, where there are so many new guns and new gun owners being created, that they cannot be properly enculturated. That's the fault of gun owners and enthusiasts. > There were shootings by rioters, which for the most part were not the people you claim are responsible for gun culture. Huh? I blame gun owners and enthusiasts and manufacturers primarily for sick gun culture. If people are rioting and shooting, then I blame them. But let's talk about BLM. In the news right now is the story that the governor of Texas aspires to pardon a man who was found guilty of murder with a gun during those riots. Tell me, what message do you think this sends to gun enthusiasts? Do you think it will make gun culture more safe, or less safe? > You automatically assumed I had a gun. Of course, because that's what we've been talking about. If you want to talk about weapons in general, you should have said that. > It's funny, though; I could probably walk into a Rust event with this knife, and I would not be breaking any rules. Rustaceans tend to be a little on the younger side in my experience, fully willing to try new things without the baggage that decades using C and C++ brings. Younger developers also tend to be more openly gay, openly trans, and also have been subjected to active shooter drills their entire childhood -- something that's foreign to you and me. Today, there is no sick knife culture where people use knives to kill children, teens, people in grocery stores and churches. There's only sick gun culture, and so the squeaky wheel gets the grease. > As another nail in your argument that it's people like me responsible for this culture You seem to be part of a good gun culture. But I still maintain it's a failure of gun owners and enthusiasts in general for not proliferating this culture. Obviously your role in this is very diffuse, but still. What are you doing today to fix it aside from complaining that you can't bring your gun to Rust conferences? The reason your gun isn't welcome at a Rust conference is because your culture of gun safety died. This means the rest of us are all left doing the best we can in the fallout, trying to keep the communities we create safe using trademark law of all things, because nothing resembling an actual gun safety law can pass Congress. And let's be honest, you're voting for the people who are helping kill your culture of gun safety, right? The NRA used to be an organization that cared about gun safety, but now they're basically a PR branch and lobbyists for gun manufacturers. The Republican party leadership doesn't care about gun safety, because if they did they would pass common-sense gun reform laws, which are supported by the majority of even conservatives! But you're still voting for them, right? > You know what would change the gun culture? Having everyone take the same safety classes that I did, to learn how to be safe, and if they are not safe, they should be chewed out by instructors like the people in my youth did me. Yes, absolutely! Do this! But how?

ModernMech 4y ago

> Sure. Except mass shootings aren't daily, and the way to do it is to raise the cost of doing so, not to take away the right of self-defense. On average, yes, there is a mass shooting in the US every day: https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/24/us/mass-shootings-fast-facts/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/24/us/mass-shootings-fast-facts/... It's been 105 days since Jan 1, and there have been 163 mass shootings. If you look at the first chart in this link, this year is on track to have more mass shootings than any year on record: https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/24/us/how-many-mass-shootings-2023-dg-xpn/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/24/us/how-many-mass-shootings-20... Also, by "raise the cost of doing so" do you mean raise the cost of guns? Or what? Either way, no one is talking about taking away the right of self-defense in general; we've been talking about restricting the presence of firearms at a conference. As always, when you are attacked you have the right to defend yourself. > This is very wrong in my experience. I grew up in rural Idaho where people were enthusiastic about guns. They were incredibly careful around guns and always taught me that guns are tools, not toys. Unfortunately, the gun culture of safety which you describe has not been properly exported from rural Idaho. Gun enthusiasts have failed, and the result is that we have a sick culture of gun enthusiasts. It would be great if we could have a lot of guns and have a culture of gun safety like Sweden, but that's not the gun culture I see around me in America. The culture of safety and respect for guns is foreign to me; instead I see a lot of braggadocio, toxic masculinity, threats, fake patriotism, and a general disrespect for the awesome power of these weapons. They are fetishized and people wrap their entire identities around their weapons. That's not the culture you describe. > You know what depicts guns as toys? Hollywood. Video games. Other pop culture. Gangs. Sure, and I'll agree that's part of sick gun culture. > Perhaps that's why there really aren't mass shootings at rural schools. So you're admitting there are still mass shootings at rural schools despite a culture of gun safety and proliferation of guns in the community? > Actually, because I had the weapon, I felt less fearful. You said yourself that your experiences were terrifying. My experience was not for me because I had a backup plan. I've already said that it's great that you want to defend your family, and it's great that you were able to control yourself and not attack anyone. You said you grew up in a culture that respects guns and you took classes. Good on you. But I'll still note that you chose to have the weapon on you, and what drove that decision? Because you felt less safe without it, it seems. You were afraid, then equipped a weapon, then you were less afraid. Okay, no shame in that. But you're not everyone. Politicians are passing laws to make it easier for people to buy guns, without also making sure that safe gun culture proliferates. What's happened is that gun enthusiasts have created an "eternal September" situation, where there are so many new guns and new gun owners being created, that they cannot be properly enculturated. That's the fault of gun owners and enthusiasts. > There were shootings by rioters, which for the most part were not the people you claim are responsible for gun culture. Huh? I blame gun owners and enthusiasts and manufacturers primarily for sick gun culture. If people are rioting and shooting, then I blame them. But let's talk about BLM. In the news right now is the story that the governor of Texas aspires to pardon a man who was found guilty of murder with a gun during those riots. Tell me, what message do you think this sends to gun enthusiasts? Do you think it will make gun culture more safe, or less safe? > You automatically assumed I had a gun. Of course, because that's what we've been talking about. If you want to talk about weapons in general, you should have said that. > It's funny, though; I could probably walk into a Rust event with this knife, and I would not be breaking any rules. Rustaceans tend to be a little on the younger side in my experience, fully willing to try new things without the baggage that decades using C and C++ brings. Younger developers also tend to be more openly gay, openly trans, and also have been subjected to active shooter drills their entire childhood -- something that's foreign to you and me. Today, there is no sick knife culture where people use knives to kill children, teens, people in grocery stores and churches. There's only sick gun culture, and so the squeaky wheel gets the grease. > As another nail in your argument that it's people like me responsible for this culture You seem to be part of a good gun culture. But I still maintain it's a failure of gun owners and enthusiasts in general for not proliferating this culture. Obviously your role in this is very diffuse, but still. What are you doing today to fix it aside from complaining that you can't bring your gun to Rust conferences? The reason your gun isn't welcome at a Rust conference is because your culture of gun safety died. This means the rest of us are all left doing the best we can in the fallout, trying to keep the communities we create safe using trademark law of all things, because nothing resembling an actual gun safety law can pass Congress. And let's be honest, you're voting for the people who are helping kill your culture of gun safety, right? The NRA used to be an organization that cared about gun safety, but now they're basically a PR branch and lobbyists for gun manufacturers. The Republican party leadership doesn't care about gun safety, because if they did they would pass common-sense gun reform laws, which are supported by the majority of even conservatives! But you're still voting for them, right? > You know what would change the gun culture? Having everyone take the same safety classes that I did, to learn how to be safe, and if they are not safe, they should be chewed out by instructors like the people in my youth did me. Yes, absolutely! Do this! But how?