38 ms·

Hydrogen fuel is basically here already. It will be used for grids shortly. And saying that it will be 2080 before it happens is the same thing as saying no (re

by _hypx 4y ago

Hydrogen fuel is basically here already. It will be used for grids shortly. And saying that it will be 2080 before it happens is the same thing as saying no (real) climate change policy will happen until 2080. Even Tesla admits we will need it for grid energy storage. It is no longer something anyone can deny anymore.

belorn 4y ago
One of current biggest project of green hydrogen in EU is the green steel project in Sweden. They received around 50 millions so far from the Swedish government and more from the EU funds. Their expected date of finishing is set to around 2045. The experts involved in that project was asked this winter if and when they expected to see green hydrogen in the European energy grid in order to replace natural gas, and their reply was around 2080 and earliest 2050 before any hydrogen energy will be burned in order to generate electricity. It takes a lot of time to build up production, storage and pipelines, and even longer to go from small scale experiments to full industry scale. The current technology is still much more expensive than natural gas when producing hydrogen, estimated to be about 10% more per unit even after you include tax rebates and green credits. Their project wouldn't have been started unless they had received those government subsidizes, and the news reporting on it are predicting that the final price tag for the government will be a few hundred millions before its fully up and running. But lets ignore that and look at the European Commission climate package in 2021. For the small price of €2 trillions of European subsidies then maybe in 2050 we would see the European grid being supply with enough hydrogen to make a difference in the climate goals. That was however before the Russian invasion of Ukraine, and a lot of the money intended to go into renewables energy has instead gone to pay for even more fossil fuels. Since then there hasn't been much talk about those trillions intended to be invested in green hydrogen, nor much proof that it was anything more than just talk. Political talk is cheap.
- _hypx 4y ago
  Sweden has already producing green steel: https://www.theguardian.com/science/2021/aug/19/green-steel-swedish-company-ships-first-batch-made-without-using-coal https://www.theguardian.com/science/2021/aug/19/green-steel-... Large scale production is slated to happen before the end of the decade: https://www.bbc.com/news/business-64538296 https://www.bbc.com/news/business-64538296 Everything seems to be happening way faster than what you are claiming.
  - belorn 4y ago
    The engineer that got interviewed, who worked at Hybrit, went through how their experimental prototype of a small production unit that they finished in 2021 did give them a lot of insight in the problems with scaling up production. The key problem they kept returning to is to get it profitable outside of government subsidies, and the next size up will provide a lot more experience in doing so even if it will fall far from actually supporting itself in terms of economics. If we are going to use press released by experimental prototypes funded by government research grants, then why stop at green hydrogen. Fusion is already here! Here is an article from last year showing how they already produced energy from fusion ignition: https://www.llnl.gov/news/national-ignition-facility-achieves-fusion-ignition https://www.llnl.gov/news/national-ignition-facility-achieve... H2 Green Steel, the competitor to Hybrit want to get in with the government subsidies, and as a strategy they are pushing a more optimistic time table. The first buildings however have yet to go up on the remote site, which is a subtle hint that there is some politics involved. 2 years to build and construct a full scale production foundry, and the wind/solar farms, and the hydrogen production facility, and the storage, and the pipelines, and so on might be just a touch unrealistic. (this is the second link you gave)
    - _hypx 4y ago
      The fact that you are trying to compare a working pilot plant with nuclear fusion shows your lack of seriousness.

by _hypx 4y ago

belorn 4y ago

One of current biggest project of green hydrogen in EU is the green steel project in Sweden. They received around 50 millions so far from the Swedish government and more from the EU funds. Their expected date of finishing is set to around 2045. The experts involved in that project was asked this winter if and when they expected to see green hydrogen in the European energy grid in order to replace natural gas, and their reply was around 2080 and earliest 2050 before any hydrogen energy will be burned in order to generate electricity. It takes a lot of time to build up production, storage and pipelines, and even longer to go from small scale experiments to full industry scale. The current technology is still much more expensive than natural gas when producing hydrogen, estimated to be about 10% more per unit even after you include tax rebates and green credits. Their project wouldn't have been started unless they had received those government subsidizes, and the news reporting on it are predicting that the final price tag for the government will be a few hundred millions before its fully up and running. But lets ignore that and look at the European Commission climate package in 2021. For the small price of €2 trillions of European subsidies then maybe in 2050 we would see the European grid being supply with enough hydrogen to make a difference in the climate goals. That was however before the Russian invasion of Ukraine, and a lot of the money intended to go into renewables energy has instead gone to pay for even more fossil fuels. Since then there hasn't been much talk about those trillions intended to be invested in green hydrogen, nor much proof that it was anything more than just talk. Political talk is cheap.

_hypx 4y ago
Sweden has already producing green steel: https://www.theguardian.com/science/2021/aug/19/green-steel-swedish-company-ships-first-batch-made-without-using-coal https://www.theguardian.com/science/2021/aug/19/green-steel-... Large scale production is slated to happen before the end of the decade: https://www.bbc.com/news/business-64538296 https://www.bbc.com/news/business-64538296 Everything seems to be happening way faster than what you are claiming.
- belorn 4y ago
  The engineer that got interviewed, who worked at Hybrit, went through how their experimental prototype of a small production unit that they finished in 2021 did give them a lot of insight in the problems with scaling up production. The key problem they kept returning to is to get it profitable outside of government subsidies, and the next size up will provide a lot more experience in doing so even if it will fall far from actually supporting itself in terms of economics. If we are going to use press released by experimental prototypes funded by government research grants, then why stop at green hydrogen. Fusion is already here! Here is an article from last year showing how they already produced energy from fusion ignition: https://www.llnl.gov/news/national-ignition-facility-achieves-fusion-ignition https://www.llnl.gov/news/national-ignition-facility-achieve... H2 Green Steel, the competitor to Hybrit want to get in with the government subsidies, and as a strategy they are pushing a more optimistic time table. The first buildings however have yet to go up on the remote site, which is a subtle hint that there is some politics involved. 2 years to build and construct a full scale production foundry, and the wind/solar farms, and the hydrogen production facility, and the storage, and the pipelines, and so on might be just a touch unrealistic. (this is the second link you gave)
  - _hypx 4y ago
    The fact that you are trying to compare a working pilot plant with nuclear fusion shows your lack of seriousness.