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Germany shutting down nuclear is so sad to see. Next step is de-industrialization and irrelevance on world stage.

by option 3y ago

nailer 3y ago
Germany’s recent reliance on Russian oil also paved the way for Putin to invade Ukraine, as both left (Obama) and right (Trump) warned Germany would happen.
- option 3y ago
  Exactly. And now they don’t have cheap and abundant gas (which is better than coal). So their choices are: (1) to pollute more with coal, (2) to de-industrialize, (3) give up on Europe’s security and offer concessions to russia.
  - RandomLensman 3y ago
    Gas itself isn't an issue. Germany does have a lot of shale gas it could tap. Politically very tough at present, though.
- _ph_ 3y ago
  Fortunately, Germany was able to completely replace fossil fuels from Russia.
  - qwytw 3y ago
    Yes. With high energy prices and burning more coal. Seems like a great deal. Also oil price is still as low as it is because Russia is allowed to export most of it into third countries which decreases demand for non-Russian oil making it cheaper for Germany/EU. As long as Russia has access to the global market Germany has not really replaced it even if none of or its products directly ended up in Germany. The only positive aspect is that China/India/etc. get to keep a significant proportion of cash which would go to Russia without the sanctions. There is no way around it. German foreign policy regarding Russia over the last 2 decades was a huge failure. Of course the same applies to many other countries but Germany is one of the most egregious examples...
Krasnol 3y ago
How should there be deindustrialization in any sector when nuclear provided between 3 and 6% to the whole mix? This is a ridiculous claim. Edit: Source https://www.destatis.de/DE/Themen/Branchen-Unternehmen/Energie/Erzeugung/_inhalt.html https://www.destatis.de/DE/Themen/Branchen-Unternehmen/Energ...
- option 3y ago
  there will be no growth. No growth => no investment which will lead to stagnation. Contrast this with what Finland is doing. Finland is going to be one of the leading European nations in 20 years.
  - Krasnol 3y ago
    Why should there be no growth? Do you have ANY facts on that because the facts out there, especially the already ongoing actual growth on renewables, show the exact opposite? Where do you even get the Finland story from? It's not like having (finally) a new nuclear reactor running makes them some kind of unicorn. Again: please deliver facts. Sources. Anything besides those preachings from Shellenbergers Astro-Turf.
  - hackandthink 3y ago
    Olkiluoto 3 is not exactly a success story. 1600 MW for 11 billion Euro is a bad deal. "Nuclear reactor Olkiluoto 3 has gone online in Finland some 12 years behind schedule and on a massively inflated budget." https://www.dw.com/en/finlands-much-delayed-nuclear-plant-launches/a-61108015 https://www.dw.com/en/finlands-much-delayed-nuclear-plant-la...
- qwytw 3y ago
  > provided between 3 and 6% to the whole mix providES. It used to be around 25% back in 2000 and was still above 10% untill very recently... > This is a ridiculous claim. Well... I'm sorry, but you seem to be an expert on those.
  - Krasnol 3y ago
lnsru 3y ago
Yes. De-industrialization comes with internal combustion engine ban. Whole Mittelstand makes very special parts for them. With electric vehicles these companies will disappear and living standard in rural areas will fall. 2 decades ago it was completely different country…
- RandomLensman 3y ago
  Mittelstand is a lot more than parts and machinery related to the car value chain.
  - _ph_ 3y ago
    And of course, a lot of them are producing parts for electric cars now. Most companies will make the transition successfully and new ones will come up too.
  - lnsru 3y ago
    Maybe. I worked for few. One was designing radio prototype and charger for BMW. Another one was manufacturing parts for gearboxes. Third one was designing and manufacturing welding inspection equipment. Another one was designing and manufacturing motors for moving the motors. And last one was building equipment for writing VINs on chassis. So yeah, some of them will survive. But they all are related to car industry. The car industry supply chains are legendarily long despite having big brand sticker on each part.
- golem14 3y ago
  I recommend the book "Who moved my Cheese" to you.
stop50 3y ago
We have much lower prices for electric power than our neighbour france. They are using mostly nuclear power and have every winter problems, because more power is used that generated. Their reactors are also security risks where you need a book to cover them all. An french three-mile island can happen any time
- skywal_l 3y ago
  > and have every winter problems No they don't. They had a problem this year (and will for probably a few years). For the past decades, France has been a net exporter [0]. > An french three-mile island can happen any time And a climate crisis is happening now and thousand of people die of respiratory disease every year. The problem is not as simple as you make it sound. [0] https://www.theglobaleconomy.com/France/electricity_exports/ https://www.theglobaleconomy.com/France/electricity_exports/
- qwytw 3y ago
  > We have much lower prices for electric power than our neighbour france Negative externalities from burning coal are pretty significant*. Of course it depends on the value you place on a human life. https://www.clientearth.org/latest/latest-updates/news/23-000-early-deaths-in-eu-from-coal-plant-pollution/#:~:text=Almost%2023%2C000%20early%20deaths%20happen,says%20a%20groundbreaking%20new%20report https://www.clientearth.org/latest/latest-updates/news/23-00.... > An french three-mile island can happen any time As long as the likelihood of that remains substantially low it's not a huge issue. I mean the cost would be almost entirely financial since nobody died because of it (the same obviously can't be said about burning coal or even natural gas...).
- Kretinsky 3y ago
  Sorry, but that's false: https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=Electricity_price_statistics https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php... 2022, for households, on average: Germany 0.32€/kwh France 0.20€/Kwh The spread was much tighter before. Because "renewables"* are unreliable and needed gas plants to make up for when the wind doesn't blow, or the sun doesn't shine, price spiked up after the Ukraine war started. They wouldn't have had this problem with nuclear. French woes are mainly linked to an aging infrastructure and delayed maintenance due to Covid-19. Ah, and fun fact, did you know that coal emits more radioactivity per kwh than nuclear? https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/coal-ash-is-more-radioactive-than-nuclear-waste/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/coal-ash-is-more-... The German's foreign affairs office was funding the Henrich Boll fundation, which campaigns in France for renewables along with the anti-nuclear movement? https://archive.is/tSY2w#selection-1357.95-1357.108 https://archive.is/tSY2w#selection-1357.95-1357.108 The renewable sector is for from being "clean", there are many cases of corruption, influences, and vested interests behind the main proponents of this solution. Gazprom funded antinuclear movements in Europe. Many "fundations", acting for the fossil fuel industry, fund the movements that suit their agenda. https://twitter.com/GeWoessner/status/1498411537144463360 https://twitter.com/GeWoessner/status/1498411537144463360 As we saw since the start of 2022, this bet has paid handsomely. EU citizens will have to deal with pollution, increased electricity prices, and wind turbines impossible to recycle. One could also go on about how China killed the EU solar panels industry by handing out unlimited subsidies. The EU was so slow to act that when they started to tax chinese panels, it was too late already. The funniest thing being that those panels are made using coal power, so it's likely that solar panels from China are worse than their alternatives. Just like electric cars in Eastern Europe emit more CO2 than thermic due to the widespread use of the worst kind of coal there to produce electricity. https://app.electricitymaps.com/map https://app.electricitymaps.com/map

Germany shutting down nuclear is so sad to see. Next step is de-industrialization and irrelevance on world stage.

by option 3y ago

Germany shutting down nuclear is so sad to see. Next step is de-industrialization and irrelevance on world stage.

Germany’s recent reliance on Russian oil also paved the way for Putin to invade Ukraine, as both left (Obama) and right (Trump) warned Germany would happen.

option 3y ago
Exactly. And now they don’t have cheap and abundant gas (which is better than coal). So their choices are: (1) to pollute more with coal, (2) to de-industrialize, (3) give up on Europe’s security and offer concessions to russia.
- RandomLensman 3y ago
  Gas itself isn't an issue. Germany does have a lot of shale gas it could tap. Politically very tough at present, though.
_ph_ 3y ago
Fortunately, Germany was able to completely replace fossil fuels from Russia.
- qwytw 3y ago
  Yes. With high energy prices and burning more coal. Seems like a great deal. Also oil price is still as low as it is because Russia is allowed to export most of it into third countries which decreases demand for non-Russian oil making it cheaper for Germany/EU. As long as Russia has access to the global market Germany has not really replaced it even if none of or its products directly ended up in Germany. The only positive aspect is that China/India/etc. get to keep a significant proportion of cash which would go to Russia without the sanctions. There is no way around it. German foreign policy regarding Russia over the last 2 decades was a huge failure. Of course the same applies to many other countries but Germany is one of the most egregious examples...

Krasnol 3y ago

How should there be deindustrialization in any sector when nuclear provided between 3 and 6% to the whole mix? This is a ridiculous claim. Edit: Source https://www.destatis.de/DE/Themen/Branchen-Unternehmen/Energie/Erzeugung/_inhalt.html https://www.destatis.de/DE/Themen/Branchen-Unternehmen/Energ...

option 3y ago
there will be no growth. No growth => no investment which will lead to stagnation. Contrast this with what Finland is doing. Finland is going to be one of the leading European nations in 20 years.
- Krasnol 3y ago
  Why should there be no growth? Do you have ANY facts on that because the facts out there, especially the already ongoing actual growth on renewables, show the exact opposite? Where do you even get the Finland story from? It's not like having (finally) a new nuclear reactor running makes them some kind of unicorn. Again: please deliver facts. Sources. Anything besides those preachings from Shellenbergers Astro-Turf.
- hackandthink 3y ago
  Olkiluoto 3 is not exactly a success story. 1600 MW for 11 billion Euro is a bad deal. "Nuclear reactor Olkiluoto 3 has gone online in Finland some 12 years behind schedule and on a massively inflated budget." https://www.dw.com/en/finlands-much-delayed-nuclear-plant-launches/a-61108015 https://www.dw.com/en/finlands-much-delayed-nuclear-plant-la...
qwytw 3y ago
> provided between 3 and 6% to the whole mix providES. It used to be around 25% back in 2000 and was still above 10% untill very recently... > This is a ridiculous claim. Well... I'm sorry, but you seem to be an expert on those.
- Krasnol 3y ago

lnsru 3y ago

Yes. De-industrialization comes with internal combustion engine ban. Whole Mittelstand makes very special parts for them. With electric vehicles these companies will disappear and living standard in rural areas will fall. 2 decades ago it was completely different country…

RandomLensman 3y ago
Mittelstand is a lot more than parts and machinery related to the car value chain.
- _ph_ 3y ago
  And of course, a lot of them are producing parts for electric cars now. Most companies will make the transition successfully and new ones will come up too.
- lnsru 3y ago
  Maybe. I worked for few. One was designing radio prototype and charger for BMW. Another one was manufacturing parts for gearboxes. Third one was designing and manufacturing welding inspection equipment. Another one was designing and manufacturing motors for moving the motors. And last one was building equipment for writing VINs on chassis. So yeah, some of them will survive. But they all are related to car industry. The car industry supply chains are legendarily long despite having big brand sticker on each part.
golem14 3y ago
I recommend the book "Who moved my Cheese" to you.

stop50 3y ago

We have much lower prices for electric power than our neighbour france. They are using mostly nuclear power and have every winter problems, because more power is used that generated. Their reactors are also security risks where you need a book to cover them all. An french three-mile island can happen any time

skywal_l 3y ago
> and have every winter problems No they don't. They had a problem this year (and will for probably a few years). For the past decades, France has been a net exporter [0]. > An french three-mile island can happen any time And a climate crisis is happening now and thousand of people die of respiratory disease every year. The problem is not as simple as you make it sound. [0] https://www.theglobaleconomy.com/France/electricity_exports/ https://www.theglobaleconomy.com/France/electricity_exports/
qwytw 3y ago
> We have much lower prices for electric power than our neighbour france Negative externalities from burning coal are pretty significant*. Of course it depends on the value you place on a human life. https://www.clientearth.org/latest/latest-updates/news/23-000-early-deaths-in-eu-from-coal-plant-pollution/#:~:text=Almost%2023%2C000%20early%20deaths%20happen,says%20a%20groundbreaking%20new%20report https://www.clientearth.org/latest/latest-updates/news/23-00.... > An french three-mile island can happen any time As long as the likelihood of that remains substantially low it's not a huge issue. I mean the cost would be almost entirely financial since nobody died because of it (the same obviously can't be said about burning coal or even natural gas...).
Kretinsky 3y ago
Sorry, but that's false: https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=Electricity_price_statistics https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php... 2022, for households, on average: Germany 0.32€/kwh France 0.20€/Kwh The spread was much tighter before. Because "renewables"* are unreliable and needed gas plants to make up for when the wind doesn't blow, or the sun doesn't shine, price spiked up after the Ukraine war started. They wouldn't have had this problem with nuclear. French woes are mainly linked to an aging infrastructure and delayed maintenance due to Covid-19. Ah, and fun fact, did you know that coal emits more radioactivity per kwh than nuclear? https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/coal-ash-is-more-radioactive-than-nuclear-waste/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/coal-ash-is-more-... The German's foreign affairs office was funding the Henrich Boll fundation, which campaigns in France for renewables along with the anti-nuclear movement? https://archive.is/tSY2w#selection-1357.95-1357.108 https://archive.is/tSY2w#selection-1357.95-1357.108 The renewable sector is for from being "clean", there are many cases of corruption, influences, and vested interests behind the main proponents of this solution. Gazprom funded antinuclear movements in Europe. Many "fundations", acting for the fossil fuel industry, fund the movements that suit their agenda. https://twitter.com/GeWoessner/status/1498411537144463360 https://twitter.com/GeWoessner/status/1498411537144463360 As we saw since the start of 2022, this bet has paid handsomely. EU citizens will have to deal with pollution, increased electricity prices, and wind turbines impossible to recycle. One could also go on about how China killed the EU solar panels industry by handing out unlimited subsidies. The EU was so slow to act that when they started to tax chinese panels, it was too late already. The funniest thing being that those panels are made using coal power, so it's likely that solar panels from China are worse than their alternatives. Just like electric cars in Eastern Europe emit more CO2 than thermic due to the widespread use of the worst kind of coal there to produce electricity. https://app.electricitymaps.com/map https://app.electricitymaps.com/map