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It’s also generating insane levels of inequality, so it really only works if you subscribe to the capitalistic illusion that GDP is a good indicator of the succ

It’s also generating insane levels of inequality, so it really only works if you subscribe to the capitalistic illusion that GDP is a good indicator of the success of a society.

ramraj07 4y ago
At least in the tech world calling the layoffs as increasing inequality is not exactly the same.
satvikpendem 4y ago
Well, the concepts of regulated free markets, free trade between nations, and generally free immigration have created the single largest increase in human living standards in history.
- justinclift 4y ago
  > single largest increase in human living standards. That's a good point. It'd be useful if the US could raise it's game for it's citizens, and let them participate in that too. :)
  - satvikpendem 4y ago
    Ask someone from a hundred years ago how it's going today and you'll have your answer.
    - justinclift 4y ago
      There wasn't a question. ;)
- camillomiller 4y ago
  Check your facts. As much as I am a firm European democrat, you might wanna see what Chinese “state driven capitalist communism” has done between 1975 and today. Again, if the measure is number of people lifted out of poverty, China wins hands down. Now, as much as we can’t consider China’s success without considering the lack of freedoms inscribed within the communist social pact, we can’t take just the good of American capitalism by only using gdp or trade volume as an indicator, because - again - inequality and lack of basic human needs and life safety wouldn’t be included. Reference: https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/press-release/2022/04/01/lifting-800-million-people-out-of-poverty-new-report-looks-at-lessons-from-china-s-experience https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/press-release/2022/04/01/l...
  - DwnVoteHoneyPot 4y ago
    Check your perspective. Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore, Japan, Korea all industrialized faster and have a higher standard of living than China. All did it in the 1980s - 40 years ago. All did it without oppressive communism.
    - DaedPsyker 4y ago
      While it might not have been communist, Korea certainly was oppressive when it built the chaebols which did involve a fair bit of government management.
      - lmz 4y ago
        Also re: Taiwan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Terror_(Taiwan) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Terror_(Taiwan)
    - lostlogin 4y ago
      Hong Kong has made it to oppressive communism, so that’s going to be interesting to watch going forward (or backwards?).
      - DwnVoteHoneyPot 4y ago
        Yes for sure. From China, to free markets, back to China. I think we’re already seeing the effects on Hong Kong. No so great.
    - ashwagary 4y ago
      >if the measure is number of people lifted out of poverty, China wins hands down. >Check your perspective. >All did it in the 1980s - 40 years ago. All did it without oppressive communism. Japan industrialized long before 1980 and all the countries listed have miniscule populations compared to China. The only country you can really attempt to compare to China's scale is India but good luck landing the same poverty alleviation conclusions.
crop_rotation 4y ago
I can see the pros of the European approach, but reducing equality can not be the only goal. If the economy keeps falling behind, the median standard of living will keep dropping. A strong economy can adopt higher taxes and more social services due to election pressures. A fallen behind economy will find it much harder to jump back. The other problem is that tons of European talent keeps going to the US. The people who have the skills to make higher wages might not care about inequality too much, since they would be the ones benefitting from it. I am not sure how Europe can solve that though.

It’s also generating insane levels of inequality, so it really only works if you subscribe to the capitalistic illusion that GDP is a good indicator of the success of a society.

ramraj07 4y ago

At least in the tech world calling the layoffs as increasing inequality is not exactly the same.

satvikpendem 4y ago

Well, the concepts of regulated free markets, free trade between nations, and generally free immigration have created the single largest increase in human living standards in history.

justinclift 4y ago
> single largest increase in human living standards. That's a good point. It'd be useful if the US could raise it's game for it's citizens, and let them participate in that too. :)
- satvikpendem 4y ago
  Ask someone from a hundred years ago how it's going today and you'll have your answer.
  - justinclift 4y ago
    There wasn't a question. ;)
camillomiller 4y ago
Check your facts. As much as I am a firm European democrat, you might wanna see what Chinese “state driven capitalist communism” has done between 1975 and today. Again, if the measure is number of people lifted out of poverty, China wins hands down. Now, as much as we can’t consider China’s success without considering the lack of freedoms inscribed within the communist social pact, we can’t take just the good of American capitalism by only using gdp or trade volume as an indicator, because - again - inequality and lack of basic human needs and life safety wouldn’t be included. Reference: https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/press-release/2022/04/01/lifting-800-million-people-out-of-poverty-new-report-looks-at-lessons-from-china-s-experience https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/press-release/2022/04/01/l...
- DwnVoteHoneyPot 4y ago
  Check your perspective. Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore, Japan, Korea all industrialized faster and have a higher standard of living than China. All did it in the 1980s - 40 years ago. All did it without oppressive communism.
  - DaedPsyker 4y ago
    While it might not have been communist, Korea certainly was oppressive when it built the chaebols which did involve a fair bit of government management.
    - lmz 4y ago
      Also re: Taiwan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Terror_(Taiwan) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Terror_(Taiwan)
  - lostlogin 4y ago
    Hong Kong has made it to oppressive communism, so that’s going to be interesting to watch going forward (or backwards?).
    - DwnVoteHoneyPot 4y ago
      Yes for sure. From China, to free markets, back to China. I think we’re already seeing the effects on Hong Kong. No so great.
  - ashwagary 4y ago
    >if the measure is number of people lifted out of poverty, China wins hands down. >Check your perspective. >All did it in the 1980s - 40 years ago. All did it without oppressive communism. Japan industrialized long before 1980 and all the countries listed have miniscule populations compared to China. The only country you can really attempt to compare to China's scale is India but good luck landing the same poverty alleviation conclusions.

crop_rotation 4y ago

I can see the pros of the European approach, but reducing equality can not be the only goal. If the economy keeps falling behind, the median standard of living will keep dropping. A strong economy can adopt higher taxes and more social services due to election pressures. A fallen behind economy will find it much harder to jump back. The other problem is that tons of European talent keeps going to the US. The people who have the skills to make higher wages might not care about inequality too much, since they would be the ones benefitting from it. I am not sure how Europe can solve that though.