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I disagree with her conclusion. Raw salmon has no inherent pathogens of interest. People eat salmon raw at sushi bars. I’d be pretty unconcerned about the food

I disagree with her conclusion. Raw salmon has no inherent pathogens of interest. People eat salmon raw at sushi bars. I’d be pretty unconcerned about the food safety issue. (Like any food there’s some risk of cross contamination, but that’s so rare.) As someone who has dealt with food safety (both as a hobbyist and professionally) a lot I can tell you most of what you read is based on government recommendations, which are designed to keep the dumbest and unhealthiest people from hurting themselves. The government doesn’t get thanked when you eat delicious, not-overcooked food but they do get blamed when people get sick, so their incentive is to tell you to overcook everything. There’s no reason you need to get that thanksgiving turkey to 165 or whatever the hell they recommend, but they do it because they know a lot of people will measure the turkey in the wrong spot so if they told you the actual 145 a lot of people would be eating breasts that never got close to 130. I don’t know why you’d want to cook your salmon in the dishwasher, but the time/temp is absolutely fine for anyone not immunocompromised. So I would say that her video showed that it doesn’t bring it up to the temperature recommended by (I assume) the FDA, but not that it is unsafe, as those are two very different things.

HWR_14 4y ago
Raw salmon is host to a variety of parasites that can hurt humans.
- mattmaroon 4y ago
  Raw meaning uncooked. Almost all the salmon you buy was previously frozen, but it’s still raw. Besides, her temperature chart showed it well above the point where parasites die. I was contrasting it to things like smoked salmon which have had listeria issues due to poor processing.
bookofjoe 4y ago
The "raw" salmon at sushi bars has previously been frozen.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- mattmaroon 4y ago
  So has the raw salmon at the grocery store. You’d have a hard time buying fish that hasn’t been previously frozen, you just don’t know it because grocery stores thaw it before it goes into the display case.
  - pvaldes 4y ago
    > You’d have a hard time buying fish that hasn’t been previously frozen Maybe in some places but nor all. Raw salmon is fresh when sold. Most of this fishes are domestic. It does not have sense economically to spend energy freezing a product that you can kill and put in the market by plane the same day. Also there would be a problem with re-freezing a frozen fish. Sushi bars store the products in a special ultrafreeze storage,for some time. They are obliged by law to do this.
    - mattmaroon 4y ago
      Farmed salmon can be sold never frozen for sushi. Wild can’t. It is one of the few fish that can be purchased that way because it has very low incidence of parasites. But still her own graph showed it was well above 140C (the temperature at which parasites are all dead) and she was talking entirely about microbes. So even if you purchased Never frozen farmed salmon and cooked it this way, you’d be very safe. Even if you didn’t cook it at all you’d be very safe, as evidenced by the fact that the government allows it. Say what you want about our government’s food regulations, they are not at all risk tolerant. I wouldn’t want to cook salmon in a dishwasher, but I wouldn’t hesitate to eat it for food safety reasons, and her video made me less concerned, not more.
    - mattmaroon 4y ago
      Also I don’t think sushi restaurants typically have any special freezers for this. You can reach the required level in a regular commercial freezer. -4F for one week. Any commercial freezer gets that cold, and that step is taken by the wholesalers anyway for any sushi that requires it.
darknavi 4y ago
> People eat salmon raw at sushi bars. I’d be pretty unconcerned about the food safety issue. That's because other people have prepared the fish for you. [0] > Sushi-grade fish must be frozen before being consumed, to further prevent any of those food-borne illnesses, and this is usually done via flash freezing, sometimes immediately after sushi-grade salmon, for example, is caught. [0] https://aksalmonco.com/blogs/learn/sushi-grade-fish https://aksalmonco.com/blogs/learn/sushi-grade-fish
- mattmaroon 4y ago
  The freezing is only because of parasites, not microbes. It doesn’t kill microbes. Practically all of the fish you purchase is actually sushi grade, having been flash frozen on the boat, it is a meaningless term. If you go to a restaurant, supply store, or a fish wholesaler, you will have a hard time finding any fish that is commonly consumed as sushi that isn’t labeled sushi grade. It’s like how nearly everything that doesn’t have wheat in it is labeled gluten-free, it isn’t because they did something special. Her temperature charts show it getting well above 140°F, which is the temperature at which all of the parasites die, and they do not form spores or come back later. So it is completely safe in that regard also.
  - kylecazar 4y ago
    And jelly beans have a giant Fat Free boast on the packaging. Healthy choices!
    - mattmaroon 4y ago
      Ha! I’m surprised they don’t put fat and gluten free on bags of sugar!
nunuvit 4y ago
Almost everyone misunderstands the recommendations. 165 F is only meant to be held for 1 second. To achieve the same level of pathogen reduction, you can trade temperature for time.
- mattmaroon 4y ago
  No, nobody misunderstands them. The recommendations leave out time entirely. People aren’t misunderstanding them, they’re just overly simplified. That’s why they’re bad. You are correct that you can do lower temperatures for longer, but FDA guidelines don’t mention this. https://www.usda.gov/media/blog/2011/05/25/cooking-meat-check-new-recommended-temperatures#:~:text=Poultry%3A%20The%20safe%20cooking%20temperature,the%20same%20at%20165%20%C2%BAF https://www.usda.gov/media/blog/2011/05/25/cooking-meat-chec.... “The safe cooking temperature for all poultry products, including ground chicken and turkey, stays the same at 165 ºF.” These are the same guidelines you encounter in the restaurant world, however in packaged food production you submit your recipes to process authorities who actually do consult time/temperature charts. But for restaurant and home guidelines they assume (not incorrectly) that it is basically impossible to ensure the restaurant or home chef cooked the chicken until the coolest part was at 145 for 2 minutes or whatever TF time/temp is needed to get the required salmonella reduction.
  - nunuvit 4y ago
    I didn't mean to say that recommendations give explicit alternatives. A temperature recommendation without explicit time is implicitly instantaneous, and without explicit location is implicitly at the coldest spot. From that, you can infer that the recommendation might be overkill, but not by how much. I didn't know that they officially reduced the temperature and added a rest time, despite the article announcing the changes being over a decade old, so thank you for the link. I'm curious if it was in response to something like so many people ignoring the recommendation that they were getting sick, or if the baked ham industry advocated for it.
frejoirfeoi 4y ago
[flagged]

HWR_14 4y ago

Raw salmon is host to a variety of parasites that can hurt humans.

mattmaroon 4y ago
Raw meaning uncooked. Almost all the salmon you buy was previously frozen, but it’s still raw. Besides, her temperature chart showed it well above the point where parasites die. I was contrasting it to things like smoked salmon which have had listeria issues due to poor processing.

bookofjoe 4y ago

The "raw" salmon at sushi bars has previously been frozen.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
mattmaroon 4y ago
So has the raw salmon at the grocery store. You’d have a hard time buying fish that hasn’t been previously frozen, you just don’t know it because grocery stores thaw it before it goes into the display case.
- pvaldes 4y ago
  > You’d have a hard time buying fish that hasn’t been previously frozen Maybe in some places but nor all. Raw salmon is fresh when sold. Most of this fishes are domestic. It does not have sense economically to spend energy freezing a product that you can kill and put in the market by plane the same day. Also there would be a problem with re-freezing a frozen fish. Sushi bars store the products in a special ultrafreeze storage,for some time. They are obliged by law to do this.
  - mattmaroon 4y ago
    Farmed salmon can be sold never frozen for sushi. Wild can’t. It is one of the few fish that can be purchased that way because it has very low incidence of parasites. But still her own graph showed it was well above 140C (the temperature at which parasites are all dead) and she was talking entirely about microbes. So even if you purchased Never frozen farmed salmon and cooked it this way, you’d be very safe. Even if you didn’t cook it at all you’d be very safe, as evidenced by the fact that the government allows it. Say what you want about our government’s food regulations, they are not at all risk tolerant. I wouldn’t want to cook salmon in a dishwasher, but I wouldn’t hesitate to eat it for food safety reasons, and her video made me less concerned, not more.
  - mattmaroon 4y ago
    Also I don’t think sushi restaurants typically have any special freezers for this. You can reach the required level in a regular commercial freezer. -4F for one week. Any commercial freezer gets that cold, and that step is taken by the wholesalers anyway for any sushi that requires it.

darknavi 4y ago

> People eat salmon raw at sushi bars. I’d be pretty unconcerned about the food safety issue. That's because other people have prepared the fish for you. [0] > Sushi-grade fish must be frozen before being consumed, to further prevent any of those food-borne illnesses, and this is usually done via flash freezing, sometimes immediately after sushi-grade salmon, for example, is caught. [0] https://aksalmonco.com/blogs/learn/sushi-grade-fish https://aksalmonco.com/blogs/learn/sushi-grade-fish

mattmaroon 4y ago
The freezing is only because of parasites, not microbes. It doesn’t kill microbes. Practically all of the fish you purchase is actually sushi grade, having been flash frozen on the boat, it is a meaningless term. If you go to a restaurant, supply store, or a fish wholesaler, you will have a hard time finding any fish that is commonly consumed as sushi that isn’t labeled sushi grade. It’s like how nearly everything that doesn’t have wheat in it is labeled gluten-free, it isn’t because they did something special. Her temperature charts show it getting well above 140°F, which is the temperature at which all of the parasites die, and they do not form spores or come back later. So it is completely safe in that regard also.
- kylecazar 4y ago
  And jelly beans have a giant Fat Free boast on the packaging. Healthy choices!
  - mattmaroon 4y ago
    Ha! I’m surprised they don’t put fat and gluten free on bags of sugar!

nunuvit 4y ago

Almost everyone misunderstands the recommendations. 165 F is only meant to be held for 1 second. To achieve the same level of pathogen reduction, you can trade temperature for time.

mattmaroon 4y ago
No, nobody misunderstands them. The recommendations leave out time entirely. People aren’t misunderstanding them, they’re just overly simplified. That’s why they’re bad. You are correct that you can do lower temperatures for longer, but FDA guidelines don’t mention this. https://www.usda.gov/media/blog/2011/05/25/cooking-meat-check-new-recommended-temperatures#:~:text=Poultry%3A%20The%20safe%20cooking%20temperature,the%20same%20at%20165%20%C2%BAF https://www.usda.gov/media/blog/2011/05/25/cooking-meat-chec.... “The safe cooking temperature for all poultry products, including ground chicken and turkey, stays the same at 165 ºF.” These are the same guidelines you encounter in the restaurant world, however in packaged food production you submit your recipes to process authorities who actually do consult time/temperature charts. But for restaurant and home guidelines they assume (not incorrectly) that it is basically impossible to ensure the restaurant or home chef cooked the chicken until the coolest part was at 145 for 2 minutes or whatever TF time/temp is needed to get the required salmonella reduction.
- nunuvit 4y ago
  I didn't mean to say that recommendations give explicit alternatives. A temperature recommendation without explicit time is implicitly instantaneous, and without explicit location is implicitly at the coldest spot. From that, you can infer that the recommendation might be overkill, but not by how much. I didn't know that they officially reduced the temperature and added a rest time, despite the article announcing the changes being over a decade old, so thank you for the link. I'm curious if it was in response to something like so many people ignoring the recommendation that they were getting sick, or if the baked ham industry advocated for it.

frejoirfeoi 4y ago

[flagged]