3 ms·

This is a dangerous line. As often, when people speak of not getting respect from others, they describe not getting subservience. Especially from kids. Especi

by taeric 4y ago

This is a dangerous line. As often, when people speak of not getting respect from others, they describe not getting subservience. Especially from kids. Especially, again, when it is authority speaking

bigtex88 4y ago
Can you provide proof of what you're saying? Respect does not equal authoritarianism. That's an extreme stance to take.
- taeric 4y ago
  My experience growing up in the US south. I almost certainly counted as a respectful student. But I also saw what was around me. As a parent now, I have seen disrespectful kids, sure. Oddly, they are rarely "disrespectful" to me. Certainly no more so than my peers. Considerably less so than older folks, oddly.
karmakurtisaani 4y ago
Ehh. I don't want to be snarky, so let me politely ask you if you have any kids of your own or if you work with kids on a daily basis?
- taeric 4y ago
  Yes. And yes. Good try, though.
  - karmakurtisaani 4y ago
    In that case a more in-depth insight would be welcome.
    - taeric 4y ago
      I can't lay claim to easy insight here. My push is that thinking it is "lack of respect" is itself looking for an easy answer. If I have anything close to insight, it is if you want respect from kids, start respecting the kids. And don't have rose colored glasses to how much respect we showed as kids. We seem to put this narrative forward that we followed rules way more closely as kids than we did. Which is unfortunate not the least because we had way fewer rules in many cases.
throwaway173738 4y ago
It’s ridiculous to equate asking kids to be cooperative in class to subservience. If education is slavery, what alternative do you propose? Do we just let them live in the streets and scrap to survive? How does that benefit them to grow up and enter a society they know nothing about?
- taeric 4y ago
  I didn't say it is slavery. That is on you. Though, I would not be shocked to see these complaints more in minority heavy environments. My assertion is only to be careful with complaints on respect. All too often the folks that are complaining on it haven't done their part in giving it, either. And I make no claims that this is a new or unique perspective. 30 years ago, I recall books and shows already touching it.
  - PessimalDecimal 4y ago
    > I would not be shocked to see these complaints more in minority heavy environments. This is almost surely factual. Why do you suppose that is?
    - taeric 4y ago
      No single reason. I do assert that respect is reciprocate, and all too often minorities are not respected.
lumb63 4y ago
I agree with you that often people conflate respect and subservience with respect to kids. However, aren’t both useful (and probably necessary?) in a classroom environment? I don’t see why it is dangerous to expect children to, within reason (i.e. on matters pertinent to their behavior and education), listen to their teachers. Both respect and subservience are lacking, based on what I have heard from my friends in education. For instance, students cussing out teachers is a lack of respect, and has nothing to do with subservience. Students talking or distracting others while the teacher is educating also shows a lack of respect. Students bullying each other also shows a lack of respect. Again, none of these have anything to do with subservience and are reasonable behaviors to prohibit in a classroom. On the other hand, there are many situations in education that require subservience of the student to the teacher. For instance, if the teacher asks or tells a student to stop talking during class, it is important that the student listen to them. If the teacher tells a student to complete their homework, an in-class assignment, or a test, it is again important that the student listen to the teacher. If the student does not listen, either their education or the education of their peers is hurt. I’d be curious to hear more about what you are referring to when you say “this is a dangerous line”.
- taeric 4y ago
  They can both be useful, maybe? And I'd go farther down one of your lines and say I'm way more worried when kids don't respect each other than I am when they don't show respect to older people. Oddly, this often plays out in many situations where the adults also don't respect each other in the same place. Cussing is an odd one. Don't go out of your way for disrespectful language, sure. But also don't go out of your way to be offended by the way people say things. Is like my family getting upset when they see someone with blue hair. Just, why is that a concern and somehow disrespect from them? Further complicating this, I grew up where we viewed Bill Cosby as the epitome of respect, and Eddie Murphy as not. And yet here we are, knowing what we know today. (I also cussed like a sailor, to the point that all of my friends would actually chide me on it, yet I was a very respectful person by all other measures.) The assignments and such is even less stable. There is no evidence that doing homework helps. There is evidence that people that can easily do homework do well. Again, maybe. Often that is evidence that people with help do well. Those without help, do not. (And I don't mean "parents that did the homework." It could be as simple as "has a stable homelife.") For the majority of these things, though, it is a tough environment for everyone involved. And all too often worrying about it at the scenes we are talking about do very little to help or improve situations. There are as many scenes where the kids don't show respect because they weren't given respect. It is reciprocal. So, to specifically go about the what I mean makes it dangerous. It is years and years of seeing folks say things like "if only ___ would respect authority, they wouldn't be in this situation." It can feel very true. But it is often ignoring as much as it is looking at.

by taeric 4y ago

bigtex88 4y ago

Can you provide proof of what you're saying? Respect does not equal authoritarianism. That's an extreme stance to take.

taeric 4y ago
My experience growing up in the US south. I almost certainly counted as a respectful student. But I also saw what was around me. As a parent now, I have seen disrespectful kids, sure. Oddly, they are rarely "disrespectful" to me. Certainly no more so than my peers. Considerably less so than older folks, oddly.

karmakurtisaani 4y ago

Ehh. I don't want to be snarky, so let me politely ask you if you have any kids of your own or if you work with kids on a daily basis?

taeric 4y ago
Yes. And yes. Good try, though.
- karmakurtisaani 4y ago
  In that case a more in-depth insight would be welcome.
  - taeric 4y ago
    I can't lay claim to easy insight here. My push is that thinking it is "lack of respect" is itself looking for an easy answer. If I have anything close to insight, it is if you want respect from kids, start respecting the kids. And don't have rose colored glasses to how much respect we showed as kids. We seem to put this narrative forward that we followed rules way more closely as kids than we did. Which is unfortunate not the least because we had way fewer rules in many cases.

throwaway173738 4y ago

It’s ridiculous to equate asking kids to be cooperative in class to subservience. If education is slavery, what alternative do you propose? Do we just let them live in the streets and scrap to survive? How does that benefit them to grow up and enter a society they know nothing about?

taeric 4y ago
I didn't say it is slavery. That is on you. Though, I would not be shocked to see these complaints more in minority heavy environments. My assertion is only to be careful with complaints on respect. All too often the folks that are complaining on it haven't done their part in giving it, either. And I make no claims that this is a new or unique perspective. 30 years ago, I recall books and shows already touching it.
- PessimalDecimal 4y ago
  > I would not be shocked to see these complaints more in minority heavy environments. This is almost surely factual. Why do you suppose that is?
  - taeric 4y ago
    No single reason. I do assert that respect is reciprocate, and all too often minorities are not respected.

lumb63 4y ago

I agree with you that often people conflate respect and subservience with respect to kids. However, aren’t both useful (and probably necessary?) in a classroom environment? I don’t see why it is dangerous to expect children to, within reason (i.e. on matters pertinent to their behavior and education), listen to their teachers. Both respect and subservience are lacking, based on what I have heard from my friends in education. For instance, students cussing out teachers is a lack of respect, and has nothing to do with subservience. Students talking or distracting others while the teacher is educating also shows a lack of respect. Students bullying each other also shows a lack of respect. Again, none of these have anything to do with subservience and are reasonable behaviors to prohibit in a classroom. On the other hand, there are many situations in education that require subservience of the student to the teacher. For instance, if the teacher asks or tells a student to stop talking during class, it is important that the student listen to them. If the teacher tells a student to complete their homework, an in-class assignment, or a test, it is again important that the student listen to the teacher. If the student does not listen, either their education or the education of their peers is hurt. I’d be curious to hear more about what you are referring to when you say “this is a dangerous line”.

taeric 4y ago
They can both be useful, maybe? And I'd go farther down one of your lines and say I'm way more worried when kids don't respect each other than I am when they don't show respect to older people. Oddly, this often plays out in many situations where the adults also don't respect each other in the same place. Cussing is an odd one. Don't go out of your way for disrespectful language, sure. But also don't go out of your way to be offended by the way people say things. Is like my family getting upset when they see someone with blue hair. Just, why is that a concern and somehow disrespect from them? Further complicating this, I grew up where we viewed Bill Cosby as the epitome of respect, and Eddie Murphy as not. And yet here we are, knowing what we know today. (I also cussed like a sailor, to the point that all of my friends would actually chide me on it, yet I was a very respectful person by all other measures.) The assignments and such is even less stable. There is no evidence that doing homework helps. There is evidence that people that can easily do homework do well. Again, maybe. Often that is evidence that people with help do well. Those without help, do not. (And I don't mean "parents that did the homework." It could be as simple as "has a stable homelife.") For the majority of these things, though, it is a tough environment for everyone involved. And all too often worrying about it at the scenes we are talking about do very little to help or improve situations. There are as many scenes where the kids don't show respect because they weren't given respect. It is reciprocal. So, to specifically go about the what I mean makes it dangerous. It is years and years of seeing folks say things like "if only ___ would respect authority, they wouldn't be in this situation." It can feel very true. But it is often ignoring as much as it is looking at.