4 ms·

I have several friends who work or worked in schools, and they all have told me that students lack respect. They cuss out teachers on a regular basis, are insub

by lumb63 4y ago

I have several friends who work or worked in schools, and they all have told me that students lack respect. They cuss out teachers on a regular basis, are insubordinate, and do not respect authority. Teachers cannot discipline the students, either. Doing so gets them calls from angry parents, or in trouble with the administration that got said calls. The above factors cause people who want to teach to stop. It is brutal to their mental health to be disrespected constantly and be powerless to do anything about it. I believe children are mostly reflections of their parents. If a child is not respectful, my hunch is that their parent(s) are not respectful. I’m curious to hear from parents: how do you ensure (if you do) that your children are respectful toward their teachers? How do your fellow parents do so? When I was a kid, the idea never occurred to me to be disrespectful toward teachers. I don’t think my parents ever had to tell me to be respectful toward my teachers. It came naturally, probably because I saw my parents be respectful toward my teachers. I of course saw children in my classes who weren’t, and I assume their parents were the same. I’m inclined to think something changed, though, since the disrespect sounds much more prevalent today. Or maybe I’m hearing about it more since I’m older, now.

taeric 4y ago
This is a dangerous line. As often, when people speak of not getting respect from others, they describe not getting subservience. Especially from kids. Especially, again, when it is authority speaking
- bigtex88 4y ago
  Can you provide proof of what you're saying? Respect does not equal authoritarianism. That's an extreme stance to take.
  - taeric 4y ago
    My experience growing up in the US south. I almost certainly counted as a respectful student. But I also saw what was around me. As a parent now, I have seen disrespectful kids, sure. Oddly, they are rarely "disrespectful" to me. Certainly no more so than my peers. Considerably less so than older folks, oddly.
- karmakurtisaani 4y ago
  Ehh. I don't want to be snarky, so let me politely ask you if you have any kids of your own or if you work with kids on a daily basis?
  - taeric 4y ago
    Yes. And yes. Good try, though.
    - karmakurtisaani 4y ago
      In that case a more in-depth insight would be welcome.
      - taeric 4y ago
        I can't lay claim to easy insight here. My push is that thinking it is "lack of respect" is itself looking for an easy answer. If I have anything close to insight, it is if you want respect from kids, start respecting the kids. And don't have rose colored glasses to how much respect we showed as kids. We seem to put this narrative forward that we followed rules way more closely as kids than we did. Which is unfortunate not the least because we had way fewer rules in many cases.
- throwaway173738 4y ago
  It’s ridiculous to equate asking kids to be cooperative in class to subservience. If education is slavery, what alternative do you propose? Do we just let them live in the streets and scrap to survive? How does that benefit them to grow up and enter a society they know nothing about?
  - taeric 4y ago
    I didn't say it is slavery. That is on you. Though, I would not be shocked to see these complaints more in minority heavy environments. My assertion is only to be careful with complaints on respect. All too often the folks that are complaining on it haven't done their part in giving it, either. And I make no claims that this is a new or unique perspective. 30 years ago, I recall books and shows already touching it.
    - PessimalDecimal 4y ago
      > I would not be shocked to see these complaints more in minority heavy environments. This is almost surely factual. Why do you suppose that is?
      - taeric 4y ago
        No single reason. I do assert that respect is reciprocate, and all too often minorities are not respected.
- lumb63 4y ago
  I agree with you that often people conflate respect and subservience with respect to kids. However, aren’t both useful (and probably necessary?) in a classroom environment? I don’t see why it is dangerous to expect children to, within reason (i.e. on matters pertinent to their behavior and education), listen to their teachers. Both respect and subservience are lacking, based on what I have heard from my friends in education. For instance, students cussing out teachers is a lack of respect, and has nothing to do with subservience. Students talking or distracting others while the teacher is educating also shows a lack of respect. Students bullying each other also shows a lack of respect. Again, none of these have anything to do with subservience and are reasonable behaviors to prohibit in a classroom. On the other hand, there are many situations in education that require subservience of the student to the teacher. For instance, if the teacher asks or tells a student to stop talking during class, it is important that the student listen to them. If the teacher tells a student to complete their homework, an in-class assignment, or a test, it is again important that the student listen to the teacher. If the student does not listen, either their education or the education of their peers is hurt. I’d be curious to hear more about what you are referring to when you say “this is a dangerous line”.
  - taeric 4y ago
    They can both be useful, maybe? And I'd go farther down one of your lines and say I'm way more worried when kids don't respect each other than I am when they don't show respect to older people. Oddly, this often plays out in many situations where the adults also don't respect each other in the same place. Cussing is an odd one. Don't go out of your way for disrespectful language, sure. But also don't go out of your way to be offended by the way people say things. Is like my family getting upset when they see someone with blue hair. Just, why is that a concern and somehow disrespect from them? Further complicating this, I grew up where we viewed Bill Cosby as the epitome of respect, and Eddie Murphy as not. And yet here we are, knowing what we know today. (I also cussed like a sailor, to the point that all of my friends would actually chide me on it, yet I was a very respectful person by all other measures.) The assignments and such is even less stable. There is no evidence that doing homework helps. There is evidence that people that can easily do homework do well. Again, maybe. Often that is evidence that people with help do well. Those without help, do not. (And I don't mean "parents that did the homework." It could be as simple as "has a stable homelife.") For the majority of these things, though, it is a tough environment for everyone involved. And all too often worrying about it at the scenes we are talking about do very little to help or improve situations. There are as many scenes where the kids don't show respect because they weren't given respect. It is reciprocal. So, to specifically go about the what I mean makes it dangerous. It is years and years of seeing folks say things like "if only ___ would respect authority, they wouldn't be in this situation." It can feel very true. But it is often ignoring as much as it is looking at.
locustous 4y ago
From a parent's perspective. > Teachers cannot discipline the students, either. Doing so gets them calls from angry parents, or in trouble with the administration that got said calls. Neither can parents discipline much, especially in public and particularly fathers. Everyone is a critic today, if you look at your own child wrong there is a call and complaint against you to DCFS or the police. It's not just teachers. The foundational issue though is feminism, it's a long term social experiment running on live subjects before you. The results are not good. Particular to child behavior is children are sent to daycare/preschool/kindergarten too early. They need more years to learn from and model healthy adults before they are thrown in with a bunch of children who have not matured themselves. Start school several years later. Send mothers back home for those years. Things will improve.
etempleton 4y ago
You point to a key issue I have heard from multiple teachers: They have basically no options for a kid that is out of control. If a kid is punching and kicking them or another student they are not supposed to touch the student they are supposed to remove all of the other students and call support. Depending on the support person, some of them are unwilling to pick up and remove a student. Everyone is concerned with being sued. Admins don’t want to suspend or expel because that is a bad data point. And how good they are at their job is based on data. They don’t want to remove them from the classroom because what else do they do with that kid? And removing a child from the classroom makes the parent complain, anyway, so it is a lose, lose. This leads to teachers feeling option-less and it only takes one child to basically hold an entire classroom hostage. The comparison is when I was a student and those students existed but were quickly removed from the classroom, usually physically as they threw punches at the support person and anyone else within arm length.
thunky 4y ago
This isn't an excuse, but maybe part of the problem is that schools haven't evolved in the way they teach. Information doesn't move the way it used to, kids brains and attention spans are different, so maybe tying kids to chairs and lecturing them doesn't work like it used to and teachers are paying the price for it. Not saying the teachers are to blame or that parents aren't part of the problem, just that there may be a bigger issue in play as well.
dragonwriter 4y ago
> I have several friends who work or worked in schools, and they all have told me that students lack respect. They cuss out teachers on a regular basis, are insubordinate, and do not respect authority Has there ever been a time when this was not a common complaint? If there was an award for “most consistent complaint in recorded history”, I think this would win.

by lumb63 4y ago

taeric 4y ago

This is a dangerous line. As often, when people speak of not getting respect from others, they describe not getting subservience. Especially from kids. Especially, again, when it is authority speaking

bigtex88 4y ago
Can you provide proof of what you're saying? Respect does not equal authoritarianism. That's an extreme stance to take.
- taeric 4y ago
  My experience growing up in the US south. I almost certainly counted as a respectful student. But I also saw what was around me. As a parent now, I have seen disrespectful kids, sure. Oddly, they are rarely "disrespectful" to me. Certainly no more so than my peers. Considerably less so than older folks, oddly.
karmakurtisaani 4y ago
Ehh. I don't want to be snarky, so let me politely ask you if you have any kids of your own or if you work with kids on a daily basis?
- taeric 4y ago
  Yes. And yes. Good try, though.
  - karmakurtisaani 4y ago
    In that case a more in-depth insight would be welcome.
    - taeric 4y ago
      I can't lay claim to easy insight here. My push is that thinking it is "lack of respect" is itself looking for an easy answer. If I have anything close to insight, it is if you want respect from kids, start respecting the kids. And don't have rose colored glasses to how much respect we showed as kids. We seem to put this narrative forward that we followed rules way more closely as kids than we did. Which is unfortunate not the least because we had way fewer rules in many cases.
throwaway173738 4y ago
It’s ridiculous to equate asking kids to be cooperative in class to subservience. If education is slavery, what alternative do you propose? Do we just let them live in the streets and scrap to survive? How does that benefit them to grow up and enter a society they know nothing about?
- taeric 4y ago
  I didn't say it is slavery. That is on you. Though, I would not be shocked to see these complaints more in minority heavy environments. My assertion is only to be careful with complaints on respect. All too often the folks that are complaining on it haven't done their part in giving it, either. And I make no claims that this is a new or unique perspective. 30 years ago, I recall books and shows already touching it.
  - PessimalDecimal 4y ago
    > I would not be shocked to see these complaints more in minority heavy environments. This is almost surely factual. Why do you suppose that is?
    - taeric 4y ago
      No single reason. I do assert that respect is reciprocate, and all too often minorities are not respected.
lumb63 4y ago
I agree with you that often people conflate respect and subservience with respect to kids. However, aren’t both useful (and probably necessary?) in a classroom environment? I don’t see why it is dangerous to expect children to, within reason (i.e. on matters pertinent to their behavior and education), listen to their teachers. Both respect and subservience are lacking, based on what I have heard from my friends in education. For instance, students cussing out teachers is a lack of respect, and has nothing to do with subservience. Students talking or distracting others while the teacher is educating also shows a lack of respect. Students bullying each other also shows a lack of respect. Again, none of these have anything to do with subservience and are reasonable behaviors to prohibit in a classroom. On the other hand, there are many situations in education that require subservience of the student to the teacher. For instance, if the teacher asks or tells a student to stop talking during class, it is important that the student listen to them. If the teacher tells a student to complete their homework, an in-class assignment, or a test, it is again important that the student listen to the teacher. If the student does not listen, either their education or the education of their peers is hurt. I’d be curious to hear more about what you are referring to when you say “this is a dangerous line”.
- taeric 4y ago
  They can both be useful, maybe? And I'd go farther down one of your lines and say I'm way more worried when kids don't respect each other than I am when they don't show respect to older people. Oddly, this often plays out in many situations where the adults also don't respect each other in the same place. Cussing is an odd one. Don't go out of your way for disrespectful language, sure. But also don't go out of your way to be offended by the way people say things. Is like my family getting upset when they see someone with blue hair. Just, why is that a concern and somehow disrespect from them? Further complicating this, I grew up where we viewed Bill Cosby as the epitome of respect, and Eddie Murphy as not. And yet here we are, knowing what we know today. (I also cussed like a sailor, to the point that all of my friends would actually chide me on it, yet I was a very respectful person by all other measures.) The assignments and such is even less stable. There is no evidence that doing homework helps. There is evidence that people that can easily do homework do well. Again, maybe. Often that is evidence that people with help do well. Those without help, do not. (And I don't mean "parents that did the homework." It could be as simple as "has a stable homelife.") For the majority of these things, though, it is a tough environment for everyone involved. And all too often worrying about it at the scenes we are talking about do very little to help or improve situations. There are as many scenes where the kids don't show respect because they weren't given respect. It is reciprocal. So, to specifically go about the what I mean makes it dangerous. It is years and years of seeing folks say things like "if only ___ would respect authority, they wouldn't be in this situation." It can feel very true. But it is often ignoring as much as it is looking at.

locustous 4y ago

From a parent's perspective. > Teachers cannot discipline the students, either. Doing so gets them calls from angry parents, or in trouble with the administration that got said calls. Neither can parents discipline much, especially in public and particularly fathers. Everyone is a critic today, if you look at your own child wrong there is a call and complaint against you to DCFS or the police. It's not just teachers. The foundational issue though is feminism, it's a long term social experiment running on live subjects before you. The results are not good. Particular to child behavior is children are sent to daycare/preschool/kindergarten too early. They need more years to learn from and model healthy adults before they are thrown in with a bunch of children who have not matured themselves. Start school several years later. Send mothers back home for those years. Things will improve.

etempleton 4y ago

You point to a key issue I have heard from multiple teachers: They have basically no options for a kid that is out of control. If a kid is punching and kicking them or another student they are not supposed to touch the student they are supposed to remove all of the other students and call support. Depending on the support person, some of them are unwilling to pick up and remove a student. Everyone is concerned with being sued. Admins don’t want to suspend or expel because that is a bad data point. And how good they are at their job is based on data. They don’t want to remove them from the classroom because what else do they do with that kid? And removing a child from the classroom makes the parent complain, anyway, so it is a lose, lose. This leads to teachers feeling option-less and it only takes one child to basically hold an entire classroom hostage. The comparison is when I was a student and those students existed but were quickly removed from the classroom, usually physically as they threw punches at the support person and anyone else within arm length.

thunky 4y ago

This isn't an excuse, but maybe part of the problem is that schools haven't evolved in the way they teach. Information doesn't move the way it used to, kids brains and attention spans are different, so maybe tying kids to chairs and lecturing them doesn't work like it used to and teachers are paying the price for it. Not saying the teachers are to blame or that parents aren't part of the problem, just that there may be a bigger issue in play as well.

dragonwriter 4y ago

> I have several friends who work or worked in schools, and they all have told me that students lack respect. They cuss out teachers on a regular basis, are insubordinate, and do not respect authority Has there ever been a time when this was not a common complaint? If there was an award for “most consistent complaint in recorded history”, I think this would win.